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 Post subject: re
PostPosted: Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:47 pm 
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good thing about obj is that the longer you play, the less lag you get since players go down one by one. the prob still is, in bc, some people dont get to play because of spawncampers. camping is a strategy but spawncamping, that can be classified as cheating. the maps can be redone like in Americas army. all spawnpoint are a single area, there are no hidden lookouts or spots. noone would really want to nuilt base camp in an area accessible to anyone from anywhere in real life. you going to look for someplace secure.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2005 8:20 am 
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In serious tactical realism games; America's Army, Rogue Spear, OFP, VBS·1, LOS:V, Hidden & Dangerous 2, Ghost Recon, SOAF, Close Combat, Red Orchestra, Soldner, SWAT 4, etc. -- there is no such thing as "camping"; defensive or offensive... Even many action realism games like IGI·2, Battlefield 2, Global Operations, Vietcong most Fans will laugh at or disregard anyone complaining about "camping"...

The concept of "camping" only applies to high speed action realism games where realistic ambush tactics are not considered to be a part of the game, and weapon FHD is high. These are games of very high in skills of execution, where as more serious tactical realism games are intended to offer leverage to tactical execution, rather then raw eye/hand speed skills of execution.

In real warfare there is no desire for an even or balanced contest of skill, which is the apotheosis of the concept of a 'game'... Where games are intended to be a fun and balanced contest of skills of execution; real combat tactics and strategy are nothing of the sort and every means is sought to imbalance and completely obviate not only the skills of your enemy but to minimize the amount of skill required by your own force to execute a mission and employ their weapons and tactics.

Tactical realism blurs the distinction of a 'game' in one important area: tactics. Tactical realism intends realistic, sophisticated and even to some extent skill of execution obviating tactical capability -- including static ambush, or what gets called "camping" in some speed/action games.

What was long very discouraging about serious tactical realism games to many game Fans that may have liked some of the features of these games, but found the game-play very frustrating (and blamed it on "camping") is in fact FHD or (First Hit Decisiveness). When a game offers realistically powerful weapons of high casual damage, high rate of fire, and no modern armor to speak of -- the game will be very high FHD or First Hit Decisive... This means the player that the player first to see and hit will generally have a decisive advantage in any encounter and prevail. This makes static ambush or "camping" the decisive single combat tactic.

Now tactical realism Fans don't mind this, they know, that even simplistic pair tactics like 'bounding', and 'slicing the pie' can overwhelm even the best placed squad sized static ambush. But unfortunately many are the games and mods that suffer the misfortune of attracting action realism Fans that believe everything must be a solo, score whoreing, mad Rambo, rush with always in motion game play...

There is a happy middle ground can be provided by realistic scale game feature that will satisfy everyone, and that is realistic III or IV level body armor. Realistically scaled armor reduces the effective FHD target area dramatically to the head and pelvic girdle, which are much harder to hit in rapid fast ambush scenarios. The protection afforded by modern III and IV armor give the ambushed solo player enough time to return effective fire (either cover or counter), or maneuver for cover -- yet still allow for the realistic and skillful execution of static ambush to be successful with marksmen that surpass the skill of the ambushed.

The issue of "Spawn camping can easily be designed out of a game if the Game and Level Designers desire. There are several approaches that apply to both respawn, reinforcement and realistic single-life tactical realism mission based gaming. SWAT 4 offers one superlative solution for reinforcement based game where the "Spawns" (called 'insertion points' in any serious tactical realism game), are actually designed to be attacked, and offer carefully placed cover and multiple random spawn points so the insertion can be instantly hot and defend-able, and provide exciting firefights that use more of the Map and put you in the action from go...

Similarly "Spawn Points" can be clipped, or put in a position of tactical leverage as is accomplished on several NS:CO Level Designs like rapeling from a helicopter where your other team members can cover your decent, or in several other spawn schemes I've outlined in thread "Thee Official TC:E Forums" that are now locked so the subject can't be discussed... :roll:

If TC:E intends to attract and sustain Fans of tactical realism, "camping" and discussions heavily laden with concern for it as some manner of issue other then by design for realistic static ambush, or the balance of FHD and armor -- really won't go far...

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 Post subject: re
PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:27 pm 
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solution to spawncamping is....

giving players more than one spawnpoint. that way, if your geting spawnkilled, you could always come out of the other spawnpoint. it doesnt really have to be more that a block away, it could be the next room with a diff exit, or the floor above or below the original spawnpoit, with its own exit ofcourse.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:35 am 
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flash em and shoot em. simple as that. or nade em if you wana be lazy.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 4:01 am 
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Or do like FlyHead and vomit on them and eat their disolving bodies...

But whatever you do be sure and whine "Camperrrrrr", and spam at least thirty votes to have them kicked from the server, and after all your votes fail TK your team, swear and leave the server before you get banned...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 10:17 am 
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or, you could stuff a smoke nade up his ass (or in her case darknecrid), and watch the effect.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:46 pm 
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Back on topic; there's a considerable opinion disparity as there always has been between action realism and tactical realism Fans. Tactical realism Fans don't even recognize the concept of 'camping' as existing as an issue, where as action realism Fans regard it as major issue to their being able to enjoy a game...

I don't think there is a 'happy fun ball' bastard game design middle ground either, unless it's to offer separate game modes... Realistic armor may be able to bridge the gap, but that's hard to say...

It's pretty well established that middle ground game designs inevitably end up appealing to a much smaller audience then a game that's purpose built and explicit in design goals to appeal specifically to the action realism or tactical realism audiences. While size of a game's audience shouldn't be the final arbiter of design, it will be as far as sustainability is concerned...

Any reasonably honest person would have to admit that Counter Strike and Ghost Recon are two of the most popular, and successful realism games -- and at opposite ends of the realism spectrum of game design. Counter-Strike has more MP Fans, Ghost Recon has more realism mods; in fact Ghost Recon has more mods then the top five games combined at over a quarter of a million mods...

I know a lot of people will completely loose all interest in TC:E regardless of the great paint job if it gets more arcade then it already is with regard to:

· player movement speed
· weapon performance metrics
· game modes (with out realistic alternatives)
· magic HUD features and bloat

Similarly I'm sure there are plenty that would have their fun cooled if things get 'too serious' for their way of thinking or preference for the lack of it when it comes to gaming... I really don't understand the point or value in creating TC:E Counter-Strike however...

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 6:42 am 
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what about rainbow6?? isnt that realistic?? (except for the auto headshottin)

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:21 am 
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Absolutely! R6 was one of. if not the first serious tactical relism game! Movement speed was a bit on the high side, but considering all the different issues of scale RSE were trying to put together in a game for the very first time I think they did a fabulous job!

R6 set the standard and the high water mark for serious tactical realism game design and feature technology (not to be confused with render candy/technology) that every game since has tried to match but none have surpassed.

Few can overlook this 1996 game's obvious aesthetic limitations today but for those that can every feature that contemporary tactical realism fans are begging for was in R6 nearly a decade ago with the exception of ironsights...

Image Image Image

Primitive by todays standards, it's updated upgrade in the R6: Rogue Spear series are still games loaded with more atmosphere, tactical sophistocation, depth and replayabilty then TC:E is yet to achieve.

Just a superficial list features that come to mind that were firsts in RSE games, that other games are still playing catch-up with include:

· leaning. croucing, proning
· shuffle, walk, run, crouch run
· clean simple control interface
· vection based weapon accuracy
· sophistocated objective based nission play
· first and thrid person tactical manuver perspectives
· simple real-time game recording
· marksmanchip and accuracy performance statistics system
· individual and tactical squad control (in SP)
· realistic fire modes
· scale weapon performance
· scale weapon handling mechanics
· scale weapon aiming machinery
· scale vection/accuracy
· realistic p2p mission planning tools
· modular zero overlay HUD design
· multiple ammunition types
· tens of thousands of weapons (via expansions and mods)
· thousands of missions, maps, and mods
· more gear, gadget and armor options then you could count
· brilliant sound design and Foley by SoundDeluxe DMG
· superlative and unsurpassedsound track by [url]Bill Brown[/url]
· hundreds of uniform and realistic cammo

Considering how sophistocated and difficult the RSE games are it comes as little suprise that RSE game Fans and fans of RSE derivative mods like NS:CO clean everyone's clocks when playing action realism games.

Many feel that every game RSE made after from Rogue Spear, Raven Shield, Ghost Recon, SOAF, were a progressive downhill run in greater attention to art assets and less and less to real game design, realism, scale and game-play as a function of those considerations...

It's a shame that so many mod Developers want to clone Counter-Strike with a new fangled paint job, and completely ignore what was widely and more deeply respected about the RSE games....

Δ


Last edited by hoak on Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 9:44 am 
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lol i got lockdown on my mobile

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:53 am 
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No kidding? Mobile what?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:15 am 
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lol mobile phone :oops:

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 11:04 am 
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Meh... I'm not sure if that's actually cool or the *I need a large hot beef injection ♡* thing I've ever heard... The 'game phone', with toothpaste dispenser, and vibrating 'marital aid'...

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 2:46 pm 
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lol its a w800i

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