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PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 10:36 pm 
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This is a good thread and glad to ideas thrown about the AA but I'd just make sure that this thread doesn't turn in an antagonistic one nor is it a critical deconstruction of each others posts.

The per map based AA is certainly an idea we have came accross and are very keen to explore further. This concept is one that has been coded in for some time into the TC:E "engine" with various other functions.

Keep the feed back flowing :)


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 12:01 am 
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LordOfKao$ wrote:
This is a good thread and glad to ideas thrown about the AA but I'd just make sure that this thread doesn't turn in an antagonistic one nor is it a critical deconstruction of each others posts.

I don't know how ringing the bell of concern over negativity is going to accomplish anything but the opposite of what you suggest you want; or what place it has in this thread... As far as any serious technical discussion is concerned (the only kind of discussion I ever initate and participated in, unless objective moderation is forsaken) "critical deconstruction" of individual posts and arguments is a keystone to any serious technical discussion, understanding, clear and literate evaluation of german material and fact.

Certainly some people don't like having the basis of their prefrences questioned, or the falacies of their argment presentation pointed out; that is not and should never be the concern of any individual seriously and honestly interested in technical discussion of any kind.

Certainly it's possible to do 'seat-of-the-pants' game design that ignores the science of measurement (Matematics), facts, and a lucid objective design discussion; ModDB is littered with the forgotten rementnts of such games, as is the bargin bin of any store that sells commercial game titles. The Official TC:E Forums are saturated with the kind of discussion that builds such games, and I have no interest in initiating or indulgeing that kind of discourse on any level -- ass kissing or even being polite don't have any place in a technicad discussion.

It shoudl be well known by now that I am not in the least interested in indulging 'touchy feely' sophmoric 'boy bonding' discussion or walking on egg shells for the benefit of individuals not desiring or equipped for a lucid, objective, technical, English language game design discussion. I always have and always will welcome and enjoy: objective, accountable criticism, and deconstruction of any argument or presentation I make.

It warrants mention that when Coroner himself initially criticised no less then five key design points I made about TC:E, and then I in turn reproached him with a deconstruction of facts, evidence and the suggestion he reevaluate his argments on that basis -- he later agreed my arguments and pointswere valid. This isn't to suggest I'm always correct, just that there is better and more valid means to technical game design anaylsis and discussion then involving feelings, and opinions that are not solidly based in fact or evidence.

In my opinion people that are not technically inclined or interested, that are sensitive and personalize impersonal, critical, technical discussion -- should either learn, and/or get Moderator guidance regarding the those threads they choose participate in.

LordOfKao$ wrote:
The per map based AA is certainly an idea we have came accross and are very keen to explore further. This concept is one that has been coded in for some time into the TC:E "engine" with various other functions.

I don't really understand what needs to be explored further; the one advantage that commercial game designers virtually universally agree game asset play management ie. feature rationing offers is replay incentive.

There functionally can not be a more compelling means that fairly limits or rations weapons availablity then a per Level Design/Mission design approach. It's simply not technically/mathematically possible to micro-managing fairness as a reward feature and remain fair; this is a design that by design is mathematically unfair, even tweaked is still unfair, andany manner of manipulation will only redistribute unfairness, not remove or 'fix' it. You can pretend it's been tweaked to an acceptable level but that is purely subjective; simple statistical and stochastic math can show that it will still be unfair to gross casino degree, ie. staked -- even with any manner or amount tweaking.

Per Level/Mission AA also offers a powerful tool to 'balancing' game play on a particular map where that's necessery, an incentive to Fans to actually take a deeper look at maps that might not initially/superfically appeal to them as strongly, and can add another dimension of scale realism to the game.

This raises another issue that's never been objectively discussied in any TC:E venue regarding the: accuracy / time & impulse damage balancing dissimilar weapons for fairness something that can be mathematically accomplished -- even maintaining a scale design... Clearly from current weapon performance, Official Forum statements and discussion -- little/no attention to proper scale or science is being applied to this issue...

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 07, 2005 3:44 pm 
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its good to see a thread that actually has the dev's thinking, and its even better to know that the aa system is being modified/tested/rubbed vigorously to the grindstone. lordofkaos said the scar might scar H. YEAH!!! that makes sense, we already have too many 5.56mm rifles in the game, a caliber like 7.62x51(notice 51, not 39) does have shitloads of stopping power :lol: :lol: btw is the aug para silenced? cos i think i saw in a screenie that it looked like it had a silencer.. btw hoak you talk like this is some national debate or smth.. not all of us here are "adults" lol :P GO HOAK shittin on the dev's

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:48 am 
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Well flyhead, if I don't qualify absolutely everything I say, there are some individuals (that have so far avoided this thread) that will get absolutely hysterical, and try and turn the thread and anyting I say into some manner of histrionic personal remark or attack.

Back on topic; I was very disappointed at seeing ISM trivialize Russian weapons with his very uninformed remarks like "Russian weapons boil down to be AK's and stuff that is similar to AK's" and his other remarks that suggest the only thing wrong with the Casino AA System is that it's "not fun" as currently implemented, totally disregarding the fact that such systems are mathematically unfair by design, and can not be tweaked or made fair by messing around with them -- i.e. his remark seems to suggest that his or some abstract and unqualified idea of "fun" is more important then fairness, realism, and the fundimental design flaw of casion rewards systems that can not be fixed...

I wish there was more, and more, more informed and objective discussion...

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 16, 2005 2:28 pm 
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Or I said the following about the AA system

ISMOLATOR wrote:
In my opinion the AA system in its current state is not very flexible and definitely not fair. If we filled the slots with a ton of new weapons and flattened each AA step a bit it might work
Yet that is of course near impossible to do in the near future so I think the only 2 choices left are. Map based loadout or free choice of weapons and giving people who choose massively weaker weapons some more magazines in hope to make up for the lack of firepower wich would be fair and still to scale.


wich I would rather interpret as saying that its unfair and unbalanced wich is in fact very similar to what you said..
I even added that a free choice of weapons would be a much better basis to start with....
hmmm :wink:

Also I didnt say anything negative about russian weapons. Just that they are all very russian. Take it as you want, tho...

Bottom line is that TCE will have more and more weapons for sure and certainly some russian weapons too, given time of course....


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 11:12 am 
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I must have somehow misunderstood you; though I don't know how I can possibly interpret the high level of enthusiasm for H&K weapons and bizarre remarks like "Russian weapons boil down to be AK's and stuff that is similar to AK's." as anything but trivializing...

Hopefully the AA System will either be (a) removed completely, or (b) set as an alternative play-mode option for those that value that sort of thing -- so that the TC:E audience isn't marred by servers running unofficial hacks and patches for this sort of thing as is currently the case.

I also hope that the TC:E Modelers and Skinners might take a more serious and informed look at Russian and Eastern European weapons as there are few matches in western counterparts that are as original in aesthetics, form, function and features... Moreover Colt and H&K weapons have been done to death in games... There are also the small Western Small Arms manufacturers that make a lot of specialized weapons that are preferred by Mercenaries and Special Ops Forces -- from the old and unsurpassed SWS to the new Robinson and Diemaco weapons...

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 17, 2005 3:38 pm 
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The "high level of enthusiasm for HK weapons" wasnt said by me directly in no context. Neither in compareable weapon quality nor in any other form.
If you mean Sho7 silly comment in that interview then I suggest readin the interview again and tell me again its not obviously silly humor.
Or do you really think we are going to rename the mod to HK's Elite?...sure.

I'd rather have something better than the AA (or some unsucked AA) system too as I already mentioned.

Its very probable that Colt and HK weapons have been done to death in games. Thats exactly why the next few updates will feature also FN, Steyr, Sig, Fa mas (along with some HK). I admit we are shamelessly eurocentric as it seems. I think there is still some CZ, Groza and Vintorez in the dusty eastblock partition of my HD :wink:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 3:53 am 
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ISMOLATOR wrote:
The "high level of enthusiasm for HK weapons" wasnt said by me directly in no context.

Never said it was; neither did I pretend to be quoting anyone as you're implying, or are perhaps doing yourself...

ISMOLATOR wrote:
If you mean Sho7 silly comment in that interview then I suggest readin the interview again and tell me again its not obviously silly humor.

No. I mean remarks like "We want to bring in as many of HK's guns as possible and thats alot of work."... Clearly nothing similar has been said about incorporating IMI, CKIB SOO, Mil, IZHMASH, KBP, TSNIITOCHMASH, Saiga, or Kovrov weapons nearly any of which is in wider world circulation and use then nearly all HK weapons combined... And you completely ignored my respons and questions regarding Russian and Easter European weapons in the previous page of this thread.

ISMOLATOR wrote:
Or do you really think we are going to rename the mod to HK's Elite?...sure.

The sarcasim really isn't necessery, it's clearly you that's not making the effort to follow the thread, or approach the subject sincerely and constructively...

ISMOLATOR wrote:
I'd rather have something better than the AA (or some unsucked AA) system too as I already mentioned.

That's exactly my point; AA, or any Casion reward system can not be "unsucked" in objective terms, it will always be unfair by design... The language of your responses seems to imply you believe it can be "unsucked" , which in absolute, objective and factual terms is not technically possible...

ISMOLATOR wrote:
Its very probable that Colt and HK weapons have been done to death in games. Thats exactly why the next few updates will feature also FN, Steyr, Sig, Fa mas (along with some HK). I admit we are shamelessly eurocentric as it seems. I think there is still some CZ, Groza and Vintorez in the dusty eastblock partition of my HD :wink:

Yes I'm encouraged by the fact that the range of TC:E weapons is finally showing at least some superficial interest in potraying something that's at least marginally more credible and not so trivializing of what the "Op Force/Terrorists" will carry as far as weapons. Unfortunately the same grossly ignorant perception that HK weapons are more refined, while Russian/Eastern weapons are crude, inaccurate but perhaps more powerful seems to prevail among the TC:E Developers...

Honestly I wouold agree that there are more important issues, but the conspicous lack of real understanding of firearms, and objective plan for TC:E's game design plan reveal some of the problems in taking this Mod to the next level...

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 5:28 am 
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well change the name from tce to Heckler VS Kalashnikov then :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2005 12:19 pm 
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1.Ah well that is utter nonesense. You did use Sho7s quote who pretended to quote me in a joking manner. And you also implied that we had serious fixation on HK's. And only because we have not mentioned every single weapon manufacturer in the world that doesnt mean that we dont have interest into making some of those other weapons either.
I have said multiple times that my goal is to create as many models as I possibly can. given time and given enough other resources of course.

2. I do follow the thread from my position as modeller. I'm neither the one who has the final say about wich weapons will make it into the game nor how they will perform or how ever they will appear/being used. As you know thats all Coroners beer, and I dont question his work cor do I dictate anything.

Thus the subject is rather insubstantial for me. I move vertices and make sure that the polygon count doesnt go through the roof.

3. If unsucked would mean that it removes as much Casino reward antics as possible then its probably something completely different afterwards anyway.

4. As I said finally its Coroner who's job it is to take the game to a new level. I just do models, animate and render them.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 9:27 am 
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Sorry. it's quite clearly not "utter nonesense", it's an honest and literal reading of official remarks made in official venues, and except for your critical reaction here; is reinforced by your own remarks.

Perhaps there is language barrier here...

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 4:39 am 
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ill just stepaside and let the adults slug it out :D

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