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 Post subject: New Weapons & Skins
PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:12 am 
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Well it looks like TC:E is finally seeing more talent of the caliber that has traditionally focused on RSE engine games...

I was a little disappointed to hear about the heavy enthusiasm and emphasis on H&K weapons -- too bad...

I'm also curious if the FN SCAR is now in fact going to be a SCAR-H or still some imaginary/magical hybrid SPR/SPC variant? The SCAR-H makes sense in a more realistic TCE context...

I also wonder about the "AA System" and what's up with that; there are plenty of posts now that widely corroberate my original position made long ago and are very well summerized by DT's remark: "That AA "system" is a poor excuse for a feature, I'm glad there's a way to disable that crap."

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 9:52 am 
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ima just say a couple words about the aa system.. its shit. i dont care if you add every single weapon in the world, no0by players like me are gonna be stuck with a *i-need-a-broader-vocab* m16, while the good players are gonna get their full choice of weapons. that in my opinion would totally crash a game. in fact many of my friends have told me they hate the aa sustem and are only playing it because it's free. i said this in another post.. its a *i-need-a-broader-vocab* handicapped game.
ps the newly modelled guns look so dAmn hOt :P

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 03, 2005 3:24 pm 
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Thanks flyhead, that's pretty much what I've said all along re. the "AA System"; that any rewards or any manner of magic action/casino buy system confers advantage.... And that is a fact not an opinion; as even the reward of choice, conferrs advantage of more flexibility.

I'm a skilled player and always had access to my weapon of choice in TCE, but the less skilled or experienced player does not. I don't like the fact that I get to pick the weapon that best suits my tactics, play style, and both my skills and those of my opponents -- where the less skilled player does not. Like I said on the other fourm; the AA System and rewards in general are like giving the boxer leading by points in a boxing match a choice of weapons to beat his losing opponent with in the next round.

No game that aspires to any objective standards of realism, fairness, or skill based game-design needs artificial, advantage conferring feature segregating the skilled from the unskilled player -- giving the skilled player rewards of advantage, where they already have plenty by way of tactical knowledge and skill.

I will choose and only play games where a balanced contest of skill in a level playing field is a part of the concept of the game design; there's just too much in the way of high quality games to pick from to waste time playng games where advantage conferring exploits are a built in issue -- regardless of game art asset quality, or how charming and nice its developers aren't.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 3:19 pm 
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I'm back.

Anyways, what about the CS system. It works well, but the game would be too much like CS.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:00 am 
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quick word: you cant buy your own weapons in real life if you're a ct (terros can tho), and in a realistic game like tce all weapons should be available as standard loadout. ps m16 is NOT issued to cts in reallife

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:52 am 
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Counter-Strike's casino "buy system" is a joke, a sad parody of bad game design; granted most C-S weapons perform virtually identically, but it's still a system that punishes the new player for being inexperienced and rewards the skilled player with supplementary and artificial advantage.

In fact many CT/AT operatives are not allowed to buy and use their own privately owned weapons due to liability issues, but that doesn't make a casino buy system a reasonable representation or even a vague allegory for those that are able to choose and buy a (as in one) rifle or handgun as a preferred alternative to an issue duty weapon.

The C-S "magical casion buy system" was created as an ad-hoc seat of the pants answer to that game initially having too many poorly balanced weapons in a design that bares absolutely no resemblance to realism other then the paint job. In fantasy arcade game design abstract and artificial concepts like weapon balance are critical and many are the uninspired, unoriginal features and even goof ball game elements employed to achieve that end; the C-S Developers have even acknowledge as much.

Copying or emulating bad game features and bad design because a game that has them becomes popular for reasons that have nothing to do with the particular feature or design is not a good idea IMHO...

With the exception of Counter-Strike FPS realism games (arcade or otherwise) that have offered some manner of buy/rewards system have universally failed/sold poorly, even though many had a lot of superlative features, technology, and game design to offer... Similarly, the leveling and weapon unlock system in BF2 is virtually universally despised by BF Fans for all the detrimental effects it's had on game-play.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 7:56 pm 
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hoak wrote:
Counter-Strike's casino "buy system" is a joke, a sad parody of bad game design; granted most C-S weapons perform virtually identically, but it's still a system that punishes the new player for being inexperienced and rewards the skilled player with supplementary and artificial advantage.


It is that way becuase its a half-life mod. In half-life multiplay thats the way its set up. I thik its dumb. But before you start critizing CS, remember they did it becuase thats what the engine supported.

I think theres nothing wrong with the AA system. Just stay in the positive and youll be fine. The AA system also relys on you team dont forget.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 4:00 am 
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chosn1 wrote:
It is that way becuase its a half-life mod. In half-life multiplay thats the way its set up. I thik its dumb. But before you start critizing CS, remember they did it becuase thats what the engine supported.

Well you're half right; they did it that way because it was easy; there are however hundreds of Half-Life mods, many of them realism mods and total conversions that don't resort to having a buy system just because it would have been easy to have one.

chosn1 wrote:
I think theres nothing wrong with the AA system. Just stay in the positive and youll be fine. The AA system also relys on you team dont forget.

I think you're certainly entitled to your opinion, but there are certainly many that disagree with you, including TCE Developers. I don't think there's anything "positive" about being agreeable, kissing ass, or saying something is ok if you don't like it, or there are objective, empiracle flaws in the design.

The "AA System" is flawd in concept and by design -- objectively and empirically; that's not an opinion, it's not a deviation from "the positive", it's a fact that can be demonstrated mathematically. Neither is it "realistic", a scale abstract of anything realistic, or an allegory of anything realistic. Most damning is the "AA System" is completely unnesscery, adds nothing good to the game what so ever, is fundimentally and conceptually flawed in a way that can not be fixed and makes the game unfair.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:04 am 
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You'll be pleased to know that the AA system is undergoing a very stringent examination to see how it be can formed into a better reward system. We acknowledge that this is an area which needs to be looked at for various reasons.

Also I believe the FN SCAR is in fact the FN SCAR-H.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 11:30 am 
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No reward system that rewards players with weapons unless all weapons have absolutely identical performance metrics can "be can formed into a better reward system" it's technically and mathematically impossible to make something that is mathematically unfair in concept and design "better" by any means other then removing it.

The idea I originally suggested of making weapons mission/map centric/specific that was mirrored by the enthusiasm of many Fans and some TC Developer(s), is the only means of limiting the armament in a game to some subset of the total available weapons that is fair to all players, in all contexts... Anything that distributes weapons as magical, casino rewards will be be flawed in essence, by design and by the mathematics of the design. Not only that it has absolutely nothing to do with realism game themes what so ever.

The only thing that would "please" me is to learn that some objective, scale game design will be incorporated in TC:E as of the next version and the AA System or anything remotely resembling a buy/rewards system will not be part of the game.

I am glad the SCAR-H was decided on, it's a much more realistic and appropriate choice then some imaginary or as yet not even prototyped versions of the weapon that some member(s) of TT were discussing. The SCAR-H also fills a hole in the TC:E armament that badly needs filling, is more approprite to TC:E's limitations of level design scale (then an SPW) and offers a version of the weapon as yet not seen in any other game.

I wish there was equal and more serious thought given to things like turning TC:E into a playable advertisement for H&K weapons; many of which are over-rated, and over included/played in games. I'd personally like to see more attention given to Russian weapons, many of which surpass H&K weapons in many areas of performance and leave H&K weapons in the dust (literally) with regards to ruggedness and reliability. There's also a hell of a lot more Russian weapons in the real world of armed conflict then H&K weapons (and for good reason).

It's interesting that one of ISM's favorite weapons (or what appeared to be), the modern SIG 500 series rifles are in fact based on and inspired by Kalashnikov rifle design. While many initially find Kalashnikov, MIL, CKIB SOO, IZHMASH, KBP, Siaga etc. weapons to be "ugly" -- once they learn to understand and appreciate the objective form that follows real function design concepts employed (vs. making weapons that are pretty for marketing and advertising "features & benefits" that have little or nothing to do with real battlefield performance but a lot to do with selling large military contracts in the Western world) they begin to appreciate what handsome weapons these are.

Just one example is the real world application of objective design appreciation is that the Kalashnikov AK rifles with the RPK receiver can cycle over a million rounds with no cleaning or lubrication without jamming or part failure. The "famous" H&K G36, fine weapon though it is can't cycle 1/4 of that number of rounds without cleaning and lubrication without jamming and/or catastrophic part failure. The way Russian ammunition calibers, and short radius leaf sighs were designed are equally impresive when compared to the approach chosen by their western counterparts.

But I'm digressing and rambling.... Suffice to say TC:E will be a big disappointment for many if it's yet another arcade C-S clone "with teaks" -- you can fill the largest capacity CD storage furniture with "squad shooters" like this, I don't think the game world needs another one, as even the prettiest game art assets will soon be surpassed by game sthat follow, but good and original game design lasts...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:21 pm 
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In my opinion the AA system doesn't work the way it was meant to be - if I understand correctly. if it was implemented to force the players to choose different weapons and not to stick with the same gear all the time, then it just failed.

The idea about mission based weapon loadouts sounded pretty cool and since you are willing to make so many different weapons then it would work well.

think about missions in germany (with mainly h&k weapons), russia (russian gear, what hoak was speaking of) etc.

write a short briefing to the missions, give the forces the right skin and gear to make it believeable.

that way we would have to use different weapons on every map. you could limitate the weapons also... (smgs on small maps, etc)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 12:57 pm 
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hoak wrote:
1. I wish there was equal and more serious thought given to things like turning TC:E into a playable advertisement for H&K weapons; many of which are over-rated, and over included/played in games.

2. I'd personally like to see more attention given to Russian weapons

3. There's also a hell of a lot more Russian weapons in the real world of armed conflict then H&K weapons (and for good reason).


1. you really think that was serious?:roll: ....I dont think HK weapons are overrated. They are just rated right.

2. Russian weapons boil down to be AK's and stuff that is similar to AK's. That doesnt invalidate your facts. Yet thing that is noticable in the current game is that the whole armament consists out of colt type weapons and AK type weapons already. I think its makes sense to widden the selection a bit before going back and adding more ak type weapons. (stalker will be very interesting in that regard imo)

3. Yes that is absolutely true. But that depends on the part of the world a conflict is happening. If it was in germany you'd be sure to see the HK weapons outnumbering any AK's in a large radius. Same goes for switzerland, austria, belgium,france,spain and most other euro or near-euro countries. I remind you that tce doesnt try to be eastern/russian centric.
Lastly TCE is not about real world conflicts its about armed conflict with various modern rifles. To some its good to some its bad.

In my opinion the AA system in its current state is not very flexible and definitely not fair. If we filled the slots with a ton of new weapons and flattened each AA step a bit it might work
Yet that is of course near impossible to do in the near future so I think the only 2 choices left are. Map based loadout or free choice of weapons and giving people who choose massively weaker weapons some more magazines in hope to make up for the lack of firepower wich would be fair and still to scale.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 3:53 pm 
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ISMOLATOR wrote:
1. you really think that was serious? :roll:

Sarcastic and petty eye rolling aside, there was no information or qualifying statement to suggest otherwise. With official statements like: "We want to bring in as many of HK's guns as possible." TC:E would become a literal commercial for H&K weapons whether by intention or not if this is followed through with.

ISMOLATOR wrote:
....I dont think HK weapons are overrated. They are just rated right.

You're entitled to your thoughts, feelings and opinions but should realize they may have absolutely nothing to do with empirical facts, reality and objective real world weapon performance.

With regard to facts if your actually interested (in facts):

· few H&K weapons are the most accurate in their class
· few H&K weapons have the highest ROF in their class
· no H&K weapon is the most relieable in its class

That last point is the most critical to the Elite Man Of War where: sexy plastic furniture that looks good in Hollywood movies and brochures to help sell government contracts, goof ball idiot ergonomic features, and even accuracy are a distant second place to relieability -- as gun that jams, or fails in real world filthy conditions is statistical certain death.

ISMOLATOR wrote:
Russian weapons boil down to be AK's and stuff that is similar to AK's.

That's quite simply an ignorant and entirely false statement. And that's not an insult, but merely a statement of fact. I did not call you ignorant, I called your statement ignorant and false -- which it is. If you want to personalize this and get hysterical like so many have on the "Official Forums", fine... But if you want a serious, fact based and adult discussion; read on...

Russian arms are designed and manufactured by more individuals and companies then there are firearms compaines in all of Western Europe. There are many Russian rifle designs that bare absolutely no resembelance to the "AK" (the correct technical nominclature is Kalashnikov) rifle designs in operating principles or technology and even caliber. In fact there are Russian rifles that have no parallels in Western weapon design, operating principle or performance.

ISMOLATOR wrote:
I think its makes sense to widden the selection a bit before going back and adding more ak type weapons.

There's a lot more than just Kalashnikov or "ak" as you call them (it's actually AK, upper case, an acronym for Avtomat Kalashnikova) rifle designs in Russian weapons as I said. In fact there is more variety in Russian rifle designs and manufactures then all of Western Europe, and the U.S. combined. Add Eastern Europe and you have still more... I'd suggest a little research on this if you're going to be calling shots on weapons in any regards in TC:E and want the game to in some way resemble reality.

ISMOLATOR wrote:
3. Yes that is absolutely true. But that depends on the part of the world a conflict is happening. If it was in germany you'd be sure to see the HK weapons outnumbering any AK's in a large radius.

I dobut it, if there was any kind of armed conflict in Germany I'd bet there would be more illegal Russian and Eastern Eurpoean weapons involved in such a conflict then were owned by all the police and military installations local to the conflict...

ISMOLATOR wrote:
Same goes for switzerland, austria, belgium,france,spain and most other euro or near-euro countries. I remind you that tce doesnt try to be eastern/russian centric.

Well TC:E is certainly Western Eurpoe U.S.A. lop sided. In fact many U.S. covernt and special operations teams use Russian Weapons in deniable operations. Russian weapons and weapons of Russian design and/or license outnumber Western European and U.S. weapons in the real world by a factor of nearly 5000 to 1. Just on a statisitical basis alone you're more likely to see Russian weapons or weapons of Russian design in any manner of armed conflict in any part of the world.

Many Russian weapons (certainly not all) are not only designed for performance and unsurpassed ruggedness, they are designed for cheap, fast and enormously high volume manufacture.

ISMOLATOR wrote:
Lastly TCE is not about real world conflicts its about armed conflict with various modern rifles. To some its good to some its bad.

If that's the case H&K encompases only a small fraction of 1% of what can be considered "modern rifles". Sad to say there's more innovation to be found in Russian weapon R&D then H&K, FN, and Colt combined.

ISMOLATOR wrote:
In my opinion the AA system in its current state is not very flexible and definitely not fair.

It's a technical impossibility for anything resembling a buy/rewards or "AA System" to be fair. You can pretend it has been tweaked to the point where it's acceptably unfair, but that does not make it fair.

But more importantly why would anyone think or feel that a casino buy/rewards AA System or anything like one is remotly desireable?

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 Post subject: The AA System
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 8:45 pm 
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I think the AA system is a great way to have it... but i personally think you should have 2-3 different weapons to choose when you Start then work your way up to the others.... it would make alot more people happy and solve most those problems

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Aug 06, 2005 9:34 pm 
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What exactly is it that you think is "great" about the AA system? What is it you feel it adds to the game? What exactly does it accomplish?

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