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 Post subject: CQB: G_Realism 1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:45 am 
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This is a thread for Tactical Realism Fans of Tactical Realism games like, but certainly not limited to: America's Army, Rogue Spear, Hidden & Dangerous, Ghost Recon, the R6 games, SWAT 3, 4, and Stetchkov Syndicate -- summarily games that emphasize functional realism of how the game plays and is played over how it looks.

The thread is intended as a venue for TR genre Fans who's interest in CQB is piqued by the prospect of a g_realism var that would allow more tactically realistic and sophisticated game metrics, features, and game-play.

A cursory list of features and metrics that have been mentioned, and/or are often considered deal-breakers to TR genre Fan interest include (but certainly aren't limited to):

· realistic encumbrance & movement speed
· weapon handling speed
· scale damage model
· scale body armor & helmet protection
· constraints on jumping & mantling
· constraints on turning speed
· realistic casual & mortal damage
· lock out of unrealistic weapons
· stance based leaning over radial leaning
· no or minimal HUD

For the uninitiated but interested, the simplest way to summarize the design 'intentions' of a Tactical Realism game is: if you can't do it or it wouldn't work that way in the real world, it shouldn't in a Tactical Realism game -- a corollary goal is that properly excecuted realistic fire-team tactics should always prevail over unrealistic team or individual tactics.

Because of the ways Gamers exploit game features the historical design premise has been to err on the side of being conservative with metrics and constraints like: no jumping, no scenario inappropriate weapons, movement & handling metrics that are on the low or conservative side of 'what's possible'.

By way of illustration it may be 'possible' for a full locked and loaded CQB Operator in breech gear to run at 13 kph, but he probably won't be able to do it for even a minute, and he won't be in any shape to rapidly, accurately, and selectively shoot hostiles and avoid innocents -- so he plans and avoids 'balls-to-the-walls' sprinting.

TR speed constraints seen in many TR games are not just for the sake of limiting Player behavior from the 'possible' (or even ridiculous) to what's realistically practical; but also to keep squads and fire-teams together, increase situational awareness, and foster the precision of how an individual squad moves.

If all were going to get was the quickest and dirtiest g_realism var metrics and features here's what I'd wish for that will appeal to the broadest TR audience, and at the same time appeal to the current TC:E audience the least (ameliorating any worries or paranoia of splitting or fragmenting the TC:E audience):

· no jumping
· no heavy munitions (fragmentation grenades, claymores, etc.)
· no sniping weapons
· no high power optics (over 3.5x) for CQB maps
· sprint speed cut by 66% if unlimited
· sprint speed cut by 33% if limited and
· forty second stamina/accuracy recovery added at exhaustion
· realistic weapon metrics
· scaled body armor
· no HUD
· simple 3 point RvS style casual damage system
· a pie menu voice radio command system for non VOIP fans
· do NOT call the var "g_hardcore" (instant TR Fan turn-off)

Of course there are oodles of details and features that could be added, tweaked, improved to appeal to specific segments of the TR audience; my intention was to offer bare-bones var feature list that draws harsh and clear lines that explicitly emphasize TR design -- and this would be enough to turn a lot of active TR Fan's heads in CQB's direction...

I think it also merrits mention that TR Fans aren't going to agree on everything any more then TC:E or Action Realism Fans do, and many will write very long posts with detailed digressions and illustrations -- it's the nature of the audience. But hopefully interest will be piqued and we can come to a concensus of pet wishes -- and maybe Coroner will deliver?

:shock:


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 Post subject: Re: CQB: G_Realism 1
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:10 am 
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IMO

· more realistic jumping..
· starting to bleed after damage and possibility to heal yourself like in TC 1.2
· no echo (the texts at left upper-corner) for kills
· no high power optics (over 4x zoom) for CQB maps
· realistic weapon metrics
· scaled body armor
· no HUD
· simple 3 point RvS style casual damage system
· no high power optics (over 3.5x) for CQB maps
· freeaim for all, not optional, not possible to disable
· adjustable leaning (optional)


Last edited by jussi on Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 7:04 am 
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Hi there,

just wanted to drop in and show my interest in this thread. I agree with what Diane and others said and very much enjoy a structured discussion and sharing opinions.
I would want to ask everyone for a constructive discussion. From my point of view, this thread should be about potential features of a realism/tactical/hardcore option and not about the pros and cons of such an option in general.

Features that I had in mind:

*Jumping only in sprint mode, otherwise only mantling
*Slower transition from prone to crouch to stand, also involving stamina
*No hud
*Consistent weapon metrics using the same physical behaviour model for all weapons including sniper rifles (integral part of CQB anyway)
*No more than 4x scope optics (integral part of CQB anyway)
*More limited and stamina based leaning, adjustable
*No radar
*No kill messages
*No crosshair (of course)
*Vector aim based un-sighted firing (e.g., RedOrchestra, integral part of CQB anyway)
*Slower and arc-limited turning in prone position
*Arc-dependent realistic turning speeds (integral part of CQB anyway)

Based on my movement speed research comparing Arma2, AmArmy2/3, Cod4, MW2, TCE, and my own stop-watched movements:

*No changes to sprint speed (1:1 with AmArmy2/3, Arma2 is 15% slower)
*5-15% speed reduction for run (10% faster than Arma2, 25% slower than COd4/MW2)
*0-10% speed reduction to aimed run (30% slower than Arma2, 1:1 with Cod4)
*20% speed increment to crouch (20% less than AmArmy3, on par with AmArmy2)
*20% speed reduction to aimed crouch (Just like AmArmy2, Arma2, Cod4, MW2)
*20% speed reduction to prone movement (Like Cod4, MW2, 20% slower than AmArmy3)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:17 am 
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jussi ver glad to see an early TR Fan! Please don't hesitate or be shy to say more about your preferences, the games you like, what you don't like, or hesitate to take exception to anything I've put here.

Coroner, I'm glad the thread is not in vein; I hope you're open to more discussion and evaluation of player movement speed as the comparisons made to ArmA and AA seem a little off... Even if spot on, both games by their developers admission have faster then realistic sprint speed due to large maps size that must be covered, and both incorporate stamina features to counter this.

TC:E as part of the comparison also comes up short due to limitations in scale resolution and accuracy -- this may seem minor but realistic coordinated CQB like you'd see in a SWAT 4 clan match or using the CF:DA or 1-David Mods it's a big deal, and guys really can't sprint at 13 kph in heavy breach gear, scoot around incessently and cork through doors like they do in TC:E -- which looks and feels absolutely ridiculous to anyone that's 'been there done that'.

While I'm not suggesting CQB g_realism 1 should mirror SWAT 4 or the G7 Mod used by Canadian JTF2, CJIRU, and Task Force Arrowhead, the game, and this mod pretty much are the benchmark for CQB realism, and the enforced slow practical movement speed play a heavy role in both the SWAT 4's realism, longevity, and CF:DA's benchmark status.

The initial strong negative reaction to SWAT 4's slow movement speed was later met with a counter reaction and wide critical praise Gamers and Reviewers after they actually played the game and explored its features. SWAT 4 was also the first FPS to incorporate real-time-tactical-way-pointing on my beta test input (back pat)...

BTW, is there any hope of realistic stance based leaning like that in Moder Warfare (the only game besides OGR to offer it)?

:)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 10:01 am 
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Quote:
I hope you're open to more discussion and evaluation of player movement speed as the comparisons made to ArmA and AA seem a little off... Even if spot on, both games by their developers admission have faster then realistic sprint speed due to large maps size that must be covered, and both incorporate stamina features to counter this.

The comparison to Arma2 is actually very accurate (as it has a meter indicator which can be directly used to determine ranges). The comparison to AmArmy2/3 involves scale determination based on the size of containers and doorframes. Particularly AmArmy2 is quite odd when it comes to scale, so, nevertheless, the estimates are as good as it gets. You are highly wellcome to cross compare but I honestly doubt you will get much different results. Additionaly speed estimates of SWAT 4 would be interesting.

Back to game design, maybe I should also redefine here what my design goals for CQB (g_realism 0) are. As mentioned earlier, I see the movement speeds pretty much along the ones used in TCE probably toned down a bit for some stances (according to my upper table). I would like to disable exploits of mad jump-move actions. I pretty much see QCB as a combination of rich variety of weapon loadout (partly with a movie style touch) like in MW2 combined with a movement system that is more restrictive somewhere between AmArmy3 and Arma2. In combination with the ability system it should still offer dynamic sprints and moves that are, lets say, just possible in real life.

For a g_realism 1 setting, I could imagine that the movement system is toned down to a conservative assumption of what is possible in real life, while, with choice of the appropriate abilities, regular QCB offers action that still seems just believable. With regard to toning down, the question remains how much? My own conservative stop-watching of tactical combat moves in different stances suggest that run, walk, and crouch, and particlularly aimed stances should get a speed reduction to 50% of what they are now. Again, sprint, maybe mixed with some acceleration and inertia, requires no change. However, it should be majorly perceived as a kind of escape action causing a longer duration of the transition to stable sighted firing afterwards.
Probably these massively reduced run and walk speeds are in line with SWAT 4.


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:10 pm 
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Making the jumping more real while still keeping jumping possibility. This means lowering the height of the jumps. Also adding speed reducation when jumping while sprinting. lenght seems to me to be quite real.

one shot and you're dead when shot in torso or head.
being shot in the legs wont kill you emmiditly but will make you unable to move or atleast have a really slow limbering walk. being shot in the arms/shoulders will make you unable to use your weapon for a period of time. When able to use the weapon again, aiming will be of much greater difficulty.

No Hud except for magazine count and your current stance position (proning, crouching, etc).

Making aiming accuracy, depend on stamina level.

Having 3 level of speeds at normal stance level (as we have now).
Slow walk: less sound but slow moving speed.
Walk: reducing the walking speed or making it drain your stamina.
Sprinting: Keeping it as it is now as the forces in QCB have little armor on themselfs. they are parts of a specialforce and not any of the regulars in the army.

Aiming stances
Slow walk, with little effect on, aiming and accuracy.
Walk: draining stamina and also affecting aiming and accuracy.
Proned moving: slower then the current proning moving speed but the option should exist.
Crouched: Slow when aiming little effect on aiming and accuracy

Crouching modes:
Aimed: read above ^^
Slow crouch. will not use any stamina and will be slow (as it is now might be good?)
Faster crouch: This one will deplete the stamina quite fast so it should be used wisely.

the translation time between crouching and standing should be increased. it should go faster to get crouched as well as proned.

Snipers should be kept in the game.
Making switching of weapons faster.


EDIT: No internal chat. Voice chat should be heard by enemy team when close.
motion blur as well as focus problems when aiming.
Make free aim more realistic or remove it since we now do have free look
The gear you wear should make sounds.
removal of smoke grenades (?) or atleast fix them as smoke nades aren't used for what they should atm.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 5:57 pm 
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coroner wrote:
For a g_realism 1 setting, I could imagine that the movement system is toned down to a conservative assumption of what is possible in real life, while, with choice of the appropriate abilities, regular QCB offers action that still seems just believable.

I and many TR game Designers would challenge the premise of 'what's possible' for tactical realism game design; the design canon, intentions and goals for TR games coveted by TR Fans is very different then any premise or thinking that begins with a premise of 'possible'.

TR design canon operates more from a premise of what is 'practical' -- the challenges faced in a worst case scenario, confronting the Gamer with enforced metrics like limitations of speed that require him/her to react as a real Operator would -- ergo, you consciously avoid getting yourself into a positions where you need to sprint from being under fire, because those situations due to lower sprint speed are now realistically perilous.

The high 'possible' sprint speed in TC:E enables and encourages ridiculous and unrealistic 'charge' tactics that while fun in their own right, will still prevail even with accuracy/recovery limitatons (as they do in other games that have take the same measures) and just don't appeal to the lion's share of the TR audience.

coroner wrote:
With regard to toning down, the question remains how much? My own conservative stop-watching of tactical combat moves in different stances suggest that run, walk, and crouch, and particularly aimed stances should get a speed reduction to 50% of what they are now. Again, sprint, maybe mixed with some acceleration and inertia, requires no change.

If you're using a stop watch and measured distance method in FPS game to measure game speed, I'd caution that it has accuracy issues in virtually all games due to scale/scale snap precision/distortion and the short distance over which you can make the measurement.

10-David (unfortunately site down) has a detailed post on this by a Simulator Developer that showed errors in excess of +/- 20% depending on game. AA, RvS, COD, OPR, and ArmA were cited and the measurements always erred on the low side (player would typically measured to be moving slower then he actually was moving).

If you know and/or use a more precise method of measuring game speed sans known movement code to engine scale metrics, or just want to see it first hand; there are free downloadable demos of both SWAT 4 MP and SP, and the game is abandonware, heavily warzed and playable in all modes online -- so you can try out and measure by what ever means you use...

coroner wrote:
However, it should be majorly perceived as a kind of escape action causing a longer duration of the transition to stable sighted firing afterwards. Probably these massively reduced run and walk speeds are in line with SWAT 4.

Again, to challenge the premise, realistically, sprinting out of fire should be a measure of last resort, that TR game metrics force the player to avoid in the first place -- so employing more cautious and realistic maneuver fire tactics is a default/required player behavior. If this isn't done, players will always gravitate to less realistic speed tactics that work and prevail in all FPS games that allow high movment speed.

FPS constraints of VIS/FOV, damage system design, and movement speed have typically had TR game Developers ramping up damage to unrealistic levels (especially on body armored targets) to counter the challenge of hitting rapidly moving target across constrained FOV at ridiculous speeds (RvS, Rogue Spear etc.) -- which is still very easily exploited with unrealistic tactics in all these games with enough time and practice (and there's always more then enough).

SWAT 4 took the bull between the horns and slowed down sprit speed drastically to confront the problem and in the estimate of many TR Fans that like and still play it, as well as Police, PMC, and Mil personal that use it as a training tool -- it's an amazing success story; especially considering it's was abandonware less then a year after release and has no cheat protection...

I grant you have to be in a very different state of mind to enjoy TR games like SWAT 4 with constrained speed limits and/or movement and aim metrics limitations found in games like ArmA II/Operation Arrowhead... In action realism games the high end of 'what's possible' moment speed, jumping, adds a very natural and liberating 'feel' to games, that I confess with no shame I enjoy -- I still play Urban Terror, more in fact then I play TC:E. But the premise of 'possible' is broken in terms of absolute realism when it comes to how a game is played by real people in the wild.

Jumping is another case that illustrates this point, jumping in 40 kilos of clothing, armor, gear, weapons and munitions while 'possible' is certainly not practical or common -- and the little jumping you might do is rare, stride based with very little vertical movement to keep your eyes and weapon up to confront threats.

While I have seen jumping realistically incorporated in TR games and mods that I liked, and I am indifferent as to whether a more realistic version of jumping or 'no jumping' is incorporated in g_realism 1 -- if you want the game mode to be taken seriously by the largest and broadest segment of the TR audience you'd give serious consideration to 'no jumping' and incorporate some kind of slow mantel over obstructions as no jumping is TR design canon in more TR games then not, and every TR game and mod poll 'no jumping' wins the vote.

I would add that no jumping in games like SWAT 4 and others combined with the sprint limitations does add enormous tension and pressure to these game that is a big part of their 'fun factor'. Also, contrary to popular canon, I'd argue for the veracity of unlimited sprint vs a stamina limited sprint as it makes keeping a squad together easier in-game.

Lastly, to answer your question the number I see most consistently bandied for an unlimited sprint speed in the TR and Sim forums like VBS2 is "the eleven minute mile" -- though this is for a lightly encumbered Operator with weapon and ammunition only, and is still regarded as high by many for an unlimited sprint.

:?


Last edited by hoak on Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:53 pm, edited 6 times in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:20 pm 
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Debating things like movement speed is unnesessary, everyone of us love this game as it is, otherwise we would spend our time more on the ArmA2 and AA3 forums. Changing this game to one of those seems quite stupid.

"This game doesn't have XXXX option that AA3 has. Thus making this a bad game." is an quote from a player, who hasn't played this game in long time (even years) and really doesn't care it that much anymore, even if he gets his wish through, he won't start playing this game after the next release. Keep TCE as an TCE, and option to all those terrible games out there. Changes are welcome, but just monkeying other games seems a stupid thing to do.

Comparing movement speeds in accurate percentages between other games seems so meaningless, when there are tons of real bugs to be fixed and just adding some content would make this game perfect. Content? Well those few new weapons seems enough for me, maybe a map or two, and those technical addons (legs, shadows etc.) that we saw in the YouTube-video are all great. Like I remember reading from somewhere that the weapons might actually be more powerful and dangerous would be ecxellent thing also, sadly that wasn't the case in the video. Still I consider the baby-steps tactic to be the right way here. Doing the whole game over, and trying to get it released after few years would be fatal to the whole project.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:25 pm 
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gonzo|Uncle Bionic wrote:
Debating things like movement speed is unnesessary, everyone of us love this game as it is, otherwise we would spend our time more on the ArmA2 and AA3 forums. Changing this game to one of those seems quite stupid.

Then thread and g_realism 1 isn't for you and 'everyone of us love this game as it is' (or only one thing), these aren't the Dorids you're looking for, move along...

:lol:


Last edited by hoak on Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 6:26 pm 
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To everyone:

coroner wrote:
From my point of view, this thread should be about potential features of a realism/tactical/hardcore option and not about the pros and cons of such an option in general.


Let's please keep this on topic, otherwise please use the TCE: Close Quarters Combat? thread. Thanks :)

And bio, g_realism (or hardcore) would be an optional game variable, not a change to the game all together.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 8:38 pm 
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Quoted a portion of his post from the CQB thread...

|2oss® wrote:
I"m up for more realism:
*Getting shot will drain your stamina quicker.
*Getting shot will cause a bleeding affect.
*Lowering the abused jumping.
*Increasing the Stamina.
*Prone quicker. (current one is ridiculously slow.)
*Being able to aim while falling. (with less accuracy ofcourse)
*Being able to jump up and climb objects yourself. (no more trick jumping crap)
*Unprone while being able to shoot. (because we all have to use 2 hands to get up).


I think the bleeding/bandaging from TC was really great and a lot more realistic than what's currently in TCE. Because if you get shot, you can't continue going on normally IRL. The whole "bleeding out unless you bandage" was great IMO and it would be nice if that was brought back in the g_realism variation.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:39 pm 
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I found a great thing that should be included not only in the g_realism, but in all the gametypes and overall in the game. Over the past few years scripting has gone from useful to completely insanity in tce.

Example:
............ edited

A speed jump.

Example:
//Rapid Fire Script
...........edited

A pistol script.

Lets fix this problem. Realism starts here: people can all have the same controls and abilities. There will however, be people that will come by claiming that scripting is not a problem and it actually helps players use certain things like silent toggles, etc. Go to any bodycount server or any objective server pull of a really good kill and you will see you get called a scriptor. :P

Please Eliminate Scritping.

/edit: no need for the actual scripts being posted, dont want any more lamers


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 22, 2010 11:49 pm 
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i dont think there is a way to totally eliminate scripting, there are probably ways of preventing certain scripts tho. but dont wanna spam coroner now, primary focus on getting a first release done to test the main functions, tweaks follow later.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 10:36 am 
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SnaKeS3K wrote:
i dont think there is a way to totally eliminate scripting, there are probably ways of preventing certain scripts tho. but dont wanna spam coroner now, primary focus on getting a first release done to test the main functions, tweaks follow later.

Well.. Does any default things need the ";"-mark?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:10 pm 
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I like where this thread is going.

-better bullet penetration model for more than wood/tin metal
-bullet ricocheting

-weapon collision - when approaching a wall, the gun goes down, if a player uses walk mode, it stops him before the collision

-holster mode used for (before) freeclimbing and other interactions

-each item having it's weight with combined weight affecting the final player speed, freeclimbing abilities and stamina depletion

-having the ability to choose at least two main armor models, light for custom recon classes with less protection and heavy for assault classes.

-being able to drop items/weapons (pistols too :) and pick them up from corpses


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