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 Post subject: Re: On the road to a successful TrueCombat update
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:13 pm 
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Sharp Shooter
Sharp Shooter

Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:50 pm
Posts: 31
Yourself [PL] wrote:
Great news Spyhawk. Is there known date, when 2.73 will be ready to download?


Not yet. We still have 2 important issues left to fix, and we plan a testing period before the actual release. A few weeks, maybe?


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 Post subject: Re: On the road to a successful TrueCombat update
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 5:57 pm 
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Groove Six Studios
Groove Six Studios

Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:24 pm
Posts: 309
Dear ET:L Team, once you are at it, can you please change in

renderer/tr_local.h

#define ENTITY_LIGHT_STEPS 16

to

#define ENTITY_LIGHT_STEPS 64


This 16-value table lookup is the reason why diffuse lighting has these ugly steps on players and viewweapons etc, don't remember whether there were side effects.


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 Post subject: Re: On the road to a successful TrueCombat update
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:43 pm 
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Sharp Shooter
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Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 7:08 pm
Posts: 51
Location: Venezuela
coroner wrote:
First "stand-alone" version finished. Install ET:L, unpack CQB 0.224, start it, done.


Wow that was quick. Finally there's hope for TC's future. Good job coroner!


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 Post subject: Re: On the road to a successful TrueCombat update
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 8:11 pm 
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Sharp Shooter
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Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:50 pm
Posts: 31
coroner> Sure, I guess the extra computation won't be noticeable on today's computer anyway. Please forward any further request to our tracker/irc channel, as I don't guarantee I'll read this forum every day.


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 Post subject: Re: On the road to a successful TrueCombat update
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:27 pm 
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Marksman
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Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:23 am
Posts: 18
Wow, this topic is so active! :pistols:

Diane wrote:
yks wrote:
Perhaps a page about CQB in http://www.moddb.com to get people interested? For now it is possible to upload locked alpha, screenshots, videos to gain more interest before unlocked 0.224 hits the web?
This had all been discussed before when there were plans to develop CQB again in 2013. However, any publicity or promotion for CQB was going to be put on hold until there was actually an active version released and not done prematurely because we do not want to follow the path of promoting a mod that does not come to fruition - as we have done in the past - thus disappointing a potential community - again.
It depends who you try to reach with advertisement. If you don't want to get average people that can't understand the game is not finished and can't be indulgent, just don't talk to this kind of people.

That said, you need some advertisement if you want to have a sufficient player base to test the game and report bugs and request features, to have some people hosting servers (same reasons), and you need some advertisement if you want to get reviewers and contributors. So, it's easy, just do advertisement on techie places. Advertising CQB on techie places will allows you to reach people who are enough educated to understand that the game is in development, and enough educated to forgive which is not finished, and enough educated to host servers or to review or contribute.

So before doing advertisement is mainstream place, just do advertisement on techie places, open source related online news paper are probably the better ones, because you know in advance the readers have a technical level above th average. But to be able to do that, your project must be open source. Coroner said many time he is not against that.

The better advertisement you can do is to say “Hey, our project is not dead, come play with us, play with the game and play with our code”, it's the best way to advertise your project to educated people.

As I said before, I can write articles on a french open-source related website named linuxfr.org as I already do for ET:Legacy and Unvanquished projects. Even if it's a french-only website, I know each time I write something about Unvanquished they get a big visit boost (the last time I did it, more people come from this french-only website than from the international phoronix website in the same month, that says something), also some contributors to this project and people hosting servers come from this website (I'm not the only one =D ), because the audience of this website is well educated and enjoy playing games.

The better you can do to get contributors and an educated player base is to say “common play our game and hack our code”, if you never say “hack our code” you will only get consumers, and consumers never forgive, and consumers are childish.

luka wrote:
coroner wrote:
Like Diane said - the first step will be the actual release of an unlocked 0.224, preferably stand alone.

What will unlocked CQB 0.224 bring ? as we already have dim mod.
Unlocked CQB will bring that:
coroner wrote:
Install ET:L, unpack CQB 0.224, start it, done.
looking good.
Also, CQB_dim does not work at all on my system. :P

luka wrote:
TC:E was already greenlit a year ago.
It is good to know, that measures the potential popularity of CQB, but currently the best thing to do is not to look for Steam customers (that will be ruthless), but contributors.

About the whole “I'm a veteran and I want to see coroner doing something I want” thread, I just want to say, since TCE is dead since 2007 and CQB is dead since 2011, the better wen can do if we want to see something alive is to let coroner do what he want. Sometime “we are many” is just another law of the strongest which is not fair. “we are many” can't force someone to do something he don't want to do. Democracy is a group deciding things for the group itself, a group deciding things for an individual is not democracy.

Caesar77 wrote:
I agree with Illwieckz on the open community aspect,
it should be on Github so it can be forked and be openly worked on.
ET:L has a lot of bugfixes and better security, TC/CQB could really
profit from that.
Coroner expressed his fear about fork. I think this fear was valid 10 years ago, not today. Usually people fears fork because they fears to see the project going out of control. There is some tools today to prevent that. :D

You can't fight against fork, the only thing you can do is to make it your allied. Each time someone downloads source code from your project, he is doing a fork. So if you want to keep control of this fork, you must use a tool that allows you to track his change, so you must use a DVCS. DVCS like Git does not fight against fork, they use the fork as the only way to contribute, so fork is more than an allied. Using a platform like GitHub not only allows you to track changes in someone else's fork, but allows you to track forks themselves. 8)

Forks are like animals: wild animals are dangerous and useless, but trained animals can help you to hunt and feed yourself, can help you too work, can protect you, and can save you. With trained animal you do more than you can do with wild animal and more than you can do with no animal at all. :wink:

DVCS like Git and platforms like GitHub are just the best way to get trained and civilized forks.

There is two kind of forks, wild forks and trained forks. Trained forks are fork done by contributors to hack your code and allowing you to merge his changes, so it means life. Wild forks are fork done by people that does not want or can't contribute. This last kind of fork is very rare, and in the most case, it happens because upstream is dead, so it's a good thing because it means life too. You know, Unvanquished is a Tremulous fork, but Tremulous is dead, so it's good. Same for ET:Legacy, the official Wolf:ET engine is dead, but because Id Software allowed volunteers to fork the engine, we can play Wolf:ET. Fork is life. :lol:

The more your project can be forked and be forked, the most it is alive. So, please do not fear to see your project beeing forked. When Caesar7 says about your project “it should be on Github so it can be forked” he means “so people can contribute”, because nobody can contribute without forking, fork is the first step to contribution. If you want to keep forks in control, just use tools that gives you that power: Git and GitHub. :wink:

So, the better advertisement you can do to get educated people is to open the project, put it where developpers are and invite people to play and hack, and invite open source techie websites in many languages to talk about your project to educated techie people. :)


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 Post subject: Re: On the road to a successful TrueCombat update
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 9:47 am 
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Master
Master

Joined: Fri Sep 29, 2006 1:13 pm
Posts: 262
Location: Slovenia
I recommended indegogo and kickstarter years ago. Coroner or Diane realy should add CQB to indegogo or kickstarter.
Insurgency failed to get it's goal but they sold it so many on steam. They have 25K reviews on steam and they are very positive.

I don't think releasing source code of game to public would be good idea. As there will be many hacks and clones (and been sold). But Coroner should share it with ppl that are interested in further dev.

Yourself [PL] wrote:
Ok guyz, we have to admit....

THIS UPDATE TOPIC WAS A JOKE
YES!
Sorry, that situation here, was just arranged by ,Diane,Illwieckz,Rbox6 Damien and me...
There will be no updates becase tbh, Diane just hacked Coroner's password... and you know the rest of this story :)
Do not be mad :] just no more updates...


Damn u all :P lol


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 Post subject: Re: On the road to a successful TrueCombat update
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 10:22 am 
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Groove Six Studios
Groove Six Studios

Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:24 pm
Posts: 309
Code cleanup on the way.
I've also digged out TCE 0.49 and earlier sources. I reviewed the speed tables, but I think staying with CQBs PPMM is the best choice. It is clearly most elaborated and didn't get a real chance yet in playtesting.

I've now added supersonic cracks for nearby supersonic bullets, while the old whizby sounds stay for subsonic bullets and after wall piercing.

I can only compile on windows right now, so probably the first release will be Win only.
There might also be some missing minor assets but I hope the community will fill them in once 0.224 is in the open.

I wonder whether it is possible to find some experienced and trustworthy ppl to compile Linux and Mac versions with code under NDA ...


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 Post subject: Re: On the road to a successful TrueCombat update
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 12:07 pm 
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Expert
Expert

Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 12:42 pm
Posts: 138
“we are many” Errr, wasn't it We are Legium ? 8)

Git us source, nomnom.
"under NDA" => Are there even concrete plans to make the code Open-source ?

Sorry to say but if we add something to this game then only on the simple condition that it's
open-source. Not going to give tech that's going to be hoarded by a TC 'team'. Any addition
to the source should benefit more than just the TC community.

Luka, ET:L is open source and it didnt bring a larger wave of cheaters. There is also not much
you can exploit in the Q3 code that hasn't already been exploited. I'd say the most danger is
in the 7 ways to break a Q3 server (any skid can).

BTW, Open-source and selling : That's pretty much an impossible combo.
Everything you add to it must be made OS, too. (Creative Commons).

_________________
Image


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 Post subject: Re: On the road to a successful TrueCombat update
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:12 pm 
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Expert
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Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:28 pm
Posts: 160
Location: Poland
40 years ago, i made a patch for cqb view_weapon models and for 3rd person [missing models] view.
Bolt models [ak47, m76, and scar were exported with main model, therefore those bolts were not animated. If it is still not fixed, let me know.


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 Post subject: Re: On the road to a successful TrueCombat update
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 2:15 pm 
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Marksman
Marksman

Joined: Tue Nov 11, 2014 6:23 am
Posts: 18
Caesar77 wrote:
“we are many” Errr, wasn't it We are Legium ? 8)
Well, the exact story is: “- What's your name? - My name is legion for we are many.”. The one who asks the name is the one who forgives, and the one who says “my name is legion” is the one who was defeated by the one who forgives. To be honest I never understood why Anonymous picked the loser's name in this story: using the “Legion” name and saying “we do not forgive” is a way to say “we have already lost, and we will definitely never win”. But this is not a CQB issue. :lol:
coroner wrote:
Code cleanup on the way.
I've also digged out TCE 0.49 and earlier sources. I reviewed the speed tables, but I think staying with CQBs PPMM is the best choice. It is clearly most elaborated and didn't get a real chance yet in playtesting.

I've now added supersonic cracks for nearby supersonic bullets, while the old whizby sounds stay for subsonic bullets and after wall piercing.
Nice to read that!
coroner wrote:
I can only compile on windows right now, so probably the first release will be Win only.
[…] I wonder whether it is possible to find some experienced and trustworthy ppl to compile Linux and Mac versions with code under NDA ...
Hmm, It's higly problematic to me for 3 reasons: advertising, contribution and server hosting. Code under NDA means I can't help on Linux version. No Linux version means I can't host server. Code under NDA and no Linux version means I can't do advertising at all (it means my audience is not your audience).

About open source code and cheaters, you will get more cheaters targeting the childish audience breastfed with windows-only and read-to-eat and ready-to-throw content than targeting a techie audience. The problem in cheat is not the one who knows how to write the cheat, but the one who use the cheat. If you release a windows only version and disallow people to test the code and host the game, you will have only cheaters.

Also, there is already plenty of “SpecOps vs Terrorist” games for windows players, targeting only the windows platform is the better way to be invisible on the windows platform, and to be inexistent in other platforms.

Also, since Urban Terror goes closed source, the open source “SpecOps vs Terrorist” market is now empty and available. Since the Urban Terror project proves nothing about their future since many years their future is unclear (they only gives promises to players, they never gives facts), it is the right moment to take their place if you do exactly the opposite of what they do: going open source instead of going closed source and giving acts and facts instead of promises. This market is open and available for you, you just have to reach out and take it, it's free! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: On the road to a successful TrueCombat update
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 7:01 pm 
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Groove Six Studios
Groove Six Studios

Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:24 pm
Posts: 309
I always had the feeling ET:L has lower performance than stock ET.
Just confirmed. In a critical scene in cqb_sample (watching the container yard from above), stock ET drops to 65 fps on my GTX 570.
The official ET:L 2.72 release drops to 38 fps!
All settings exactly the same.
In some other situations its the same fps with bot engines.

Weird.


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 Post subject: Re: On the road to a successful TrueCombat update
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:07 pm 
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Expert
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Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:28 pm
Posts: 160
Location: Poland
Routes for cqb_sample was made messy, sometimes bots just stop @ one spot and that makes a terrific fps drop even to 15-20fps. W/o AI i did not notice freezes or spikes on 2.60b [cqb_sample]. With Legacy i had some frame drops but looks like seta com_maxfps "76" solves that problem. . There are 2 spots where frames goes down on my 9600gt.
Chimney - Containers
Containers - Locked Gate.
76 to 60-65


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 Post subject: Re: On the road to a successful TrueCombat update
PostPosted: Fri Apr 03, 2015 8:57 pm 
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Master
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I'm guessing the FPS issues will get sorted out as the the work on OGL3 integration progresses, should not be a show stopper at this point.


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 Post subject: Re: On the road to a successful TrueCombat update
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:12 am 
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Expert
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Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 12:28 pm
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Location: Poland
Some screenshots from etl benchmark
Seta com max_fps 333
1024x786
max game settings max graphic card boost
http://s4.postimg.org/p2cyymaul/legacy1.png - 285 fps [only sky and 8000-9000 visible verts on weapon models.
http://s15.postimg.org/jj7ow66ih/legacy2.png
http://s3.postimg.org/5copgi7b5/legacy3.png
First "dangerous" "laggy" "fps-drop"
spot. Still stable 75 while looking trough the scope and 88 when unaimed.

Second "bad" spot
http://s21.postimg.org/he0g419ed/legacy4.png 102 fps

Containers
http://s24.postimg.org/kx0fgjpgj/legacy5.png 200 fps

Scope - about 2000 verts/triangles
Main weapon model 6000/7000 [visible maybe 4000/5000]

GL extension enabled - pure smoothness on locked 76
GL extension disabled - horrible fps drop


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 Post subject: Re: On the road to a successful TrueCombat update
PostPosted: Sat Apr 04, 2015 5:24 am 
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Groove Six Studios
Groove Six Studios

Joined: Wed Apr 27, 2005 2:24 pm
Posts: 309
I have the weird feeling that if I start ET:L the second time, the fps are better. Then I can reproduce exactly the same fps as in stock ET. No bots. Just floating on top of cqb_sample, with basically rendering the whole map.

BTW yourself, really hope you can help out providing all these great models, also patches for the not animated bolts.
Once 0224 is out, I hope you are willing to compile a patch pak, that can get official then.
I also love the bolt-action rifle. And aksu with cobra sight ...
I can also add more weapons once I know which ones you have. I really love AkSu.


Hopefully with the unlocked 0224 we can get a team going. But also a bunch of freelancers is ok with addons getting "officialized" :). No matter how, the show must go on.


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