HIT BOXES needs to improve,
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Author:  Dragonathan [ Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:02 pm ]
Post subject:  HIT BOXES needs to improve,

ok we all know that the "hit boxes" in TC:E... works like crap.
like when you wanna take an enemy down by shooting his facial erea,
it often fails, even after more than 3 attempts,
this really sucks.
and it seems the the hit boxes are limited from your head to your torso,
but i want to be able to hit all the parts of the enemy's body,
from the head to the toe,
i wanna see blood when i've hit someones legs or feet.
i wanna see blood when i've hit someones hands or arm,
there should be blood/wounds comming out on evry section of the body,
even a slight bit blood when you shot someone's boots.

and when you've been shot on your leg erea,
it would be realistic if you walk slow/cripple,
and when some bullets hits you're hands/arms
you will swing the weopon your holding, same like when your swinging when you look at a sniper's scope,
the more you're being hit on your arms/hand, the more the swinging will increase,
but if this does demage the gameplay, than the devs shouldnt do this.
but i know 100% shure about the walking slow/cripple after you been hit on your feet/legs erea, will not demage the gameplay,
i know some games that does have this feature, and this feature really makes things immersive

and i know this is all possible with wet-engine,
this will really increase the "realism factor"

Author:  Dragonathan [ Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HIT BOXES needs to improve,

XenoKiLLer wrote:
well when your wounded you shouldnt be able to climb at all. and when you get shot while your on the ladder, you should fall down.

yess, only if you have been shot in your legs/feet a couple of times.

Author:  Dragonathan [ Tue Feb 07, 2006 7:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: HIT BOXES needs to improve,

sorry for my 3 post's
i didnt wanna edit my post's, and its my thread :P

on topic:
Look at this picture:
(I used these models because it has A front and a backside)

now the red boxes are vulnurable,
the green boxes are less vulnurable,
because they're well protected,
(bullet proof vest, protection for the knee's ect. ect.)

the red boxes should give 100% demage,
and the green boxes should give 35% demage,

Author:  Silentcrisis [ Tue Feb 07, 2006 8:46 pm ]
Post subject: 

So, I take it that you want people to be "wounded" sort of crippling their legs and such...

An alright idea, but most people don't survive the first couple of shots anyways if they're on a ladder. :P

I'm sort of confused though at what else your proposing here...


Author:  XenoKiLLer [ Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:29 pm ]
Post subject: 

I guess another Armament Availability points based reward would be the ability to take more damage before dying. Lets say an ordinary person can only take one or two, the AA points bonus allows you to take a bit more like 3 shots before you get killed. This is still within the bound of realism because as you get used to getting shot and you survive, you eventually get stronger and be able to resist it alot more.

Author:  hoak [ Wed Feb 08, 2006 12:20 pm ]
Post subject: 

Nice ideas but not especially technically correct as far as suggestions for a realistic lethal/casual hit boxes... Knee-pads for example do not typically have any kind of ballistic protection, though there is one models that do, they don't appear to work very well. Legs and arms in general are statistically very difficult targets to hit then you might imagine, where statistically many leg/arm hits end up being graze wounds of little consequence in combat.

Ballistic vest protection is complicated; without a neck dam for example the neck area of a vest often ends up acting as a sort of funnel or 'bullet scoop' making an easily protected area very susceptible, effectively larger then it really is, and very vulnerable. Similarly the arm holes in vests without shoulder plates catch bullets in the high torso area, but are harder to hit.

In fact the most vulnerable area is the pelvic girdle -- and most contemporary CQC/B training paradigm is now making this the primary point of aim -- as this is a wide target, at the center of gravity, that follows the targets movement, and has demonstrated statistically to be a more effectively lethal/casual target then head shots with the same caliber ammunition.

This is a very soft target, with massive blood flow; and the pelvis makes a great bullet catcher/reflector so few shots to this area 'pass through' cleanly, and typically ricochet around causing massive and lethal or casual trauma. With many large arteries and high volume blood flow make even the most poorly placed 9mm shot to the PG a likely candidate for a fast 'bleed out'... Pelvic girdle and abdominal hits are also some of the most painful and incapacitating as is grusome groin/genital area trauma which is also typically very psychologically debilitating...

If WET allows for modification of the hit-boxes the simplest geometry boxes that represent statistically lethal areas should be shaped something like an upside down "T" for the head neck arm-hole area, and a broad triangle for the pelvic girdle... Statistically hits to legs and arms are roughly as likely to in incapacitate a combatant as being hit in IIIa or IV ballistic armor, so these areas should offer very high resistance to hit effectiveness...

If TC:E should ever model sophisticated body armor options, like shoulder armor, loin plates and aprons, ballistic face shields etc.; which would be a very cool feature as more armor always equals less mobility, speed, stamina (do to limits of range of motion, and over-heating), and concomitant reduced accuracy with weapons -- it could add a lot of depth and sophistication to TC:E...


Author:  it [ Wed Feb 08, 2006 2:49 pm ]
Post subject: 

/\I agree/\

I think that the hitboxes can be changed, it's a lo of work, but it can be done. in ETpub is it? they made it possible to modify teh head hitbox.

did you know that when sprinting, your hitboxes are more than 5 feet (ingame) wide!

Author:  Dragonathan [ Wed Feb 08, 2006 5:15 pm ]
Post subject: 

hoak wrote:
Nice ideas but not especially technically correct as far as suggestions for a realistic lethal/casual hit boxes... Knee-pads for example do not typically have any kind of ballistic protection,

I thought they were for bullet-proof protection,
because it must be really painful if you've been hit on your knee's,
the worst case, is that you cant walk nomore,
because the knee's are vulnerable,
thats why I thought that knee-pads were for bullet-proof protection,

Author:  it [ Wed Feb 08, 2006 6:34 pm ]
Post subject: 

some are, most arent.

BTW, if I could have 1 type of armor, I'd go for Dragon Skin, it can take a few clips from an AK before it fails.

Author:  hoak [ Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:16 pm ]
Post subject: 

Knee pads are designed for padding knees for fast kneel, going flat fast, and as protection against banging your knees into low, sharp and immobile objects in CQC/B... When you move with 40+ lbs of gear and are honing in on a objective that's a life and death situation your knees take a lot of horrible abuse. You try to look where you're going but you're more aware of where your weapon will be firing so you can run into things with painful and horrible results.

Protective padding that absorbs shock is actually across purposes with effective ballistic projectile protection where you want no 'give' what so ever -- most ballistic knee pads are more a marketing gimic then something that affords any real hit protection.

As I pointed out on the official forums long a ago one of the advantages realistic ballistic protection affords in a game like TC:E besides more realism, is to raise the skill curve against FHD, with smaller effective targets.

A skill curve where players can always improve; vs. absolute skill requirements is really valuable in making a game sustainable and credible... Sustainable because a game with a skill curve always offers opportunity for improvement and it's easy to see how you can improve (more focus, better marksmanship, more careful weapon handling, etc.)... More credible because in a game with a clear skill curve you can easily determine that the people that are beating you are in fact more skilled and practiced then you -- vs. games where players just know how to exploit and leverage a game's limitations.


Author:  XenoKiLLer [ Wed Feb 08, 2006 9:47 pm ]
Post subject: 

welcome back hoak, long time no hear from you. The though of you knowing that scares me. lol jk. So yuor saying that besides headshots doing the ultimate damage, pelvis shots should do equally and cause shock trauma? well I used to shoot down low before but recently Ive been aiming for higher places and getting good numbers of headshots. As far as I know, there cant be too many hitboxes on a single model right? So how do you break up the model into damage sectors with appropriate amounts of effectiveness?

Author:  8BAll [ Thu Feb 09, 2006 12:25 am ]
Post subject: 

Hmm has anybody some screens from the current hitboxes ? Or from the new version ?
I think they even change the hitboxes in the new version ;)

Author:  XenoKiLLer [ Thu Feb 09, 2006 1:51 am ]
Post subject: 

yeah i believe Coroner mentioned that at somepoint in the past year. the devs did say that the hitboxes are rather too big thats why getting kills is always so easy. I think they used bigger hitboxes for TCE compared to the regular ET. in ET getting a headshot with a sniper rifle is something not everyone can do (I can :P ) but in TCE, headshots are like, well just a quick'n'easy thing to do. the thing I dont understand is why no0bs still call me and others cheaters and persecute us for aimbot users. its those people who have really bad hand eye coordination and very wimpy reflexes much like a sloth, plus not to forget a very low common sense as they dont even try to avoid getting shot in the first place.

Author:  hoak [ Thu Feb 09, 2006 8:37 am ]
Post subject: 

Hi XenoKiLLer :) I'll try and answer your questions in order as best I can...

XenoKiLLer wrote:
So yuor saying that besides headshots doing the ultimate damage, pelvis shots should do equally and cause shock trauma?

Any useful measurement of the effects of exit and forensic ballistics have to be expressed statistically because there are literally an infinite number of variables effecting what a bullet will do when it hits a human target -- not to mention the litany of variables in projectiles and targets themselves.

The head for example is a very hard target, and with surprisingly frequency even high caliber bullets will bounce, graze or spaul when hitting even an unarmored person's head -- not even penetrating the skull. Penetrating head trauma is rarely painful, and some of the most ghastly ballistic head trauma not only aren't lethal they leave the injured conscious and in many cases combat effective.

This isn't to suggest that a clean head shot is not, statistically speaking, very likely to kill or disable someone, but it's never a certain or 'always' proposition -- Mother Nature offers a surprising "BS" factor that can be really shocking. Incapacitating and/or lethal trauma are certainly in the high eighty low ninety percentile range though for any long rifle cartridges fired from long barrel weapons inside their effective ranges -- and hits the high nineties with any precision aimed 'double tap'...

For those picking nits; statistically the bounce, graze, and low/no penetration spaul shots are most often the poorly aimed stray or spray shot, or the shot that hits the moving target...

The pelvic girdle offers a very different kind of target: a very soft target -- nearly 100% of all shots that hit the frontal pelvic girdle will penetrate; a very high percentage of shots penetrating the pelvic girdle will do multiple path damage due to bouncing and spauling off of large bone masses, and do ghastly catastrophic damage.

Where the human head is well protected by design, relatively insensitive to pain, very tolerant of catastrophic damage, and very easy to armor -- the pelvic girdle is very poorly protected by nature, difficult to armor, has very large diameter and vulnerable nerve roots and arteries making crippling, painful, and/or lethal catastrophic damage quick easy to deliver with modern firearms.

XenoKiLLer wrote:
well I used to shoot down low before but recently Ive been aiming for higher places and getting good numbers of headshots.

Yes, currently there are no released games or mods that offer scale damage model of any kind -- nearly all offer the most effective kill shot as a head shot.

I think most games, like most people, and even your reaction to my post clearly demonstrate there's something of a stigma to 'shooting a man in the crotch', it's much closer to something we can empathize with as we've all been hurt in the lower abdomon and or crotch at sometime and know how humbling the pain is. Splitting someone's skull open somehow seems more humane and quickly lethal and under the best of circumstances that may be true -- but in 'True Modern Combat' being humane is rarely a consideration...

XenoKiLLer wrote:
As far as I know, there cant be too many hitboxes on a single model right?

As far as realism is concerned, yes, a high resolution damage model represented by a per-poly hit system would be fantastic. But practically speaking, from a Game Design perspective; it's very prohibitive as the more complicated your damage model gets, and the higher it's granularity -- the more susceptible it is to bugs and "BS" hits as MP game latency climbs, and hit areas get 'fuzzy' due to time displacement and WYSI(NOT)WYG.

XenoKiLLer wrote:
So how do you break up the model into damage sectors with appropriate amounts of effectiveness?

I'd be glad to illustrate something that offers a good balance of modern armored realism, and what's practical with-in the constraints of game hit code resolution -- and would really like to do it on the same image Dragonathan did. I think it's a Ghost Recon 2 model render but can't be sure, if he or someone gives me a URL I'll grab it and mark it up.



Author:  hoak [ Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:55 am ]
Post subject: 

Found it and Dragonathan PM'd me at the same time with a link; thanks! :D It's a GR2 render just like I thought....

Here's a simple but realistic hit model based on casual hit probability; these are not the actual shapes the hit boxes should assume just showing relative vulnerability of a IIIa/IV armored model...


Violet are soft targets that are generally very FHD, and susceptable to high damage from very few hits. Green include armored and very difficult to hit/damage target areas. Yellow for lower limbs, very small hard to hit targets areas but dead on center shots should be casual and/or hobbling if that is offered as a feature of the game...

In practice the hit box for the head (in violet) should resemble a cylinder, that is smaller in diameter the actual model of the head so that shots have to be realistically close to center to prevent a graze shot.

Similarly the vulnerable pelvic girdle area should be a box that is smaller then the actual dimensions of the model. All hit boxes should stay inside the confines the model in all postures as this is something of an issue on most arcade derivative games on id Software engine games.

There is reasonable argument that offering 'legging' where a hit to very small and hard to hit critical leg hit areas, almost skeletal in size would hobble a player -- this is believed by many STS Fans to increase the level of tactical seriousness and using cover maneuver as part of the game as no one wants to get 'legged'

The greatest difficulty is probably in creating a damage model that different from front to back as both critical head and pelvic areas offer a smaller effective profile from the rear with armor though body armor with a neck dam has roughly equal front to back protection, and an front apron would make vulnerability from front to back of the pg roughly equal...

Probably the most significant thing the TC:E Dev Team can to in terms of realism is making the critical head hit box smaller, and lowering the damage effects to other areas dramatically to reflect an armored target.

As TC:E has a sort of class system, perhaps different levels of armor can be used to more closely match the kind of weapons a particular class carries and their mission; ie.: breeching, assault, sniper, command, support -- etc. Unfortunately the current 'classes' aren't particularly realistic with respect to any manner of urban CT/AT or Elite Ops squad...


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