All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 106 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:08 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:38 am
Posts: 357
CFE M1 wrote:
Everything is fine with the body modern protecion effectivness but one thing. Being hit by high (or medium) energy bullet would knock victim off his feet and render him temporary (even few seconds) unable to respond.

Simply not true -- if were we wouldn't be able to fire rifles without getting knocked down as an equal amount of energy is imparted to the rifle as the bullet.

Moreover much of the energy is lost in transet (barrel and areodynamic drag) so the projectile hitting the target has considerably less energy then the recoil energy you get hit with from a rifle, shotgun or handgun... The projectile also puts it's energy into a smaller area then the butt of a rifle in order to do damage -- and that remaining energy is dissapated in organ and body fluid displacement...

Even in those instances when a bullet dissipates all it's energy into a man-target it rearely has enough energy to knock him off his feet... Most people slump or fall when hit as a defensive and/or panic reaction to being hit or fired on...

CFE M1 wrote:
Real firefights aren't forgiving even for well armoured man. And here we have importance of cooperation -victim can be protected by comrades otherwise is subject of esy kill afterwards (especially in CQC).

Depends on what you mean by "firefight" and "forgiving" -- most modern IIIa improved body armor with no ceramic plate using moden Arimids will stop multiple 7.62 rounds at close range (as demonstrated in the videos on the previous pages)with out "knocking down" or even displacing the armored man-target any more then the guy firing on him...

CFE M1 wrote:
Ok, it isn't easy to model in game but I think it's possible. Nice attempt was created by developers of "Obsidian Edge" mod for Far Cry. In this mod hit to the body cause vision and aim spin resulting in screwed aim and real confusion. You're still on your feet but can't comfortaby aim and shoot back.

You might like it, and these might be nice effects for the Arcade Mod/Modes for TC:E, but unless it's random and rare it's not particularly realistic.

There is a massive amount of performance data for body armor, exit ballistics statistics, and casual effects statistics that make it pretty easy to create a simple and realistic damage model and hit boxes -- that's why my first diagram:

Image

Which is based on scatter grams of real world lethal and casual hits is more important to understand then a simplistic bone/boxs that may not reflect similar statistical outcomes in games if not designed with any understanding of physics, ballistics, exit ballistics and sadly forensic ballistics...

Like and enjoy what you will, I hope that TC:E's realism mode allows for a realistic damage model based on real world body armor... The Arcade Ramdom Spam Deathmatch and CTF modes can have what ever thills that crowd...

Δ


Last edited by hoak on Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:11 pm 
Offline
Pwnzer
Pwnzer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 4573
Location: Canada, ON
CTF doesnt have to, all it really needs is to be a faster pace compared to standard BC or OBJ because it involves chasing the enemies.

_________________
Image
Terms of Use||TC:E + W:ET EULA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 12:16 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:38 am
Posts: 357
Doesn't have to what?

:?:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 1:45 pm 
Offline
Marksman
Marksman

Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:59 am
Posts: 11
Check this:
http://spikedhumor.com/Article.aspx?id=624
Ok, soldier shown here was unprepared and had no balance at the moment of impact but still was knocked off his feet. But, on the other hand, who is really prepared for hit?
I'll try to get some more information directly from battlefield to share it.
As I recognize your point as valid and appreciate your dedication and knowledge I have to say I'm surpised by your attitude toward me. I can't recall anything what could give you any clue to consider me part of
Quote:
The Arcade Ramdom Spam Deathmatch and CTF modes (...) crowd
or to treat me as lesser being. You don't know me at all so why? Because of those few words about "Obsidian Edge"? Do you know this mod?
So please. I dont want to start any kind of war or argue. I don't need to be loved or liked by you. I don't care. But staying neutral will sure help the discussion. Of course if you mind discussion at all. Just let me know...


Last edited by CFE M1 on Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:59 pm 
Offline
Forum Master
Forum Master
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:48 am
Posts: 1239
The same thing is in COD. If you shoot an enemy with a sniper and don't kill them. They'll fall onto the ground but pick themselves back up. This could get very annoying though, cause if you were shot in your spawn point by a spawn n00b, you give him enough time to n00b-fr4g you, which would really piss me off.

~Silentcrisis

_________________
Image

/Dragonathon

TC:E/ET username = Silentcrisis


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:54 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:38 am
Posts: 357
I have een the video several times, the guy was hit from a sniper in a van less then a block away, with a 7.76 round, hit high in the chest on the ceramic plate well above his CG, was wearing full kit in excess of 60 lbs., and leaning and turning when he was hit (very few people fall on their backs unless they are very off balance)... He's just knocked off balance and sits down and gets right back up -- get one of the higher resolution versions and watch it in slow motion.

There are many videos of Marines in firefights taking numerous hits -- some don't even know they've been hit they're so pumped; some drop, few fall... Many show absolutely no signs of being hit except for puffs of dust debris from their vets and/or blood -- and numerous holes and damage to their vets after action...

If you want realism a far better and higher integrity approach is to do real research, or read the real research of others rather then relying on a few anecdotal examples of what happened. By way of example if you had never witnessed or seen video of a car accident and then saw one where the car flipped and went high in the air would it be reasonable to assume this happened in most car accidents or even frequently?

You could actually ascertain a reasonable scientific hypothesis from the masses and speeds of motor vehicles that would lead you to suspect that cars do not usually fly up in the air and flip in most accidents -- but you'd need crash statistics to corroborate you.

Whether someone armored or not drops, falls or on rare occasions is knocked off balance is up to a lot of variables and is not an "always" thing. A bullet passing through a person for example imparts less energy then if you threw a shoe at them -- how is that possibly going to knock someone down? Similarly projectiles fired at range, projectiles that hit obliquely, low caliber projectiles, spangled projectiles can end up imparting little more energy then is required to punch a hole in a person and most of the energy is displaced internally as heat and gut tearing rather then lateral force...

Read the math, the science and the statistics on real combat exit and forensic ballistics -- or join the Military and test it out on new and interesting people...

Δ


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:57 pm 
Offline
Marksman
Marksman

Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 10:59 am
Posts: 11
Well, actually I was very interested in such theme some time ago (long before second Iraqi War started) and I red lot of articles and books even including maths and physics. I own collection of some books and few (in fact since 1991) year collection of serious military magazine. Ok, last time my inerest has cooled down and shifted towards more peacefull things but still exists.
But here my approach is more practical in game sense. It is not possible to simualte bullet hit physic in satisfactory way. Especially not using WET engine. Developers have to secrifice pure realism by some asumptions. And I think this is what we discuss here.
And let me tell my point:
- I agree that reaction to hit can vary and depends in very complex and still not 100% known way on many variables. However we can discuss and choose the most important ones. The question is if this can be translated into the game engine. I can't answer this question.
- continuing above, judging from my knowledge and your posts the psychic state of hit victim is one of the key variables. We could add to this experience, achieved (or not) military training, influence of drugs, witnessing friends death etc. I don't think so it is possible to simulate everything. For game I would assume higher alert psychic state with lesser pain suscebility. It would mean higher pain threshold and better wound endurance than average person. We assume combatants received good military training.
- body type - just physics - the more heavy and strong body is - the less susceptible to loose balance of any kind. For game I would assume strong, prepared man but not Schwarzenegger type. In contrary to common belief Spec Ops are rarely very huge and built like bodybuilders. Ok, they are far above average, but not to the extent.
- Hit location. You've give nice proposal of hitboxes. It could be used to produce hit effects depending of hit location. For example non penetrating hit in the head for sure should be noticed by player, maybe his vision would be balancing up and down or similar effect. Additionally he could have his vision blurred. Torso hits... Well... I would rather assume is has effect on player disturbing his aim in random way. We could implement separate effects on abdomen and chest hits as momentum and pain reaction here and here is diffrent. Letting hit be unnoticed is rather low probability occurence and is strongly dependant on some variables (see above amongs others). It could be random, but it is not good way in my opinion. We should remeber that it is military, realistic shooter, not role-playing game with long period action. In case of RPG we could extend word "realism" much better, but it would be completely different game.
As for hitboxes - some time ago developers of Urban Terror mod invented nice hit detection system which was much more detailed. Torso had, as I remember, 5 hit locations, neck was separate location than head. I know, this mod was terribly arcadish, but it is not subject of my thought. The subject is hit detection system, called Zeus (or something like this) It had issues and I'm not sure if it was corrected as I lost interest in this mod very quickly. But... maybe it could be used (it was for Q3 mod, I'm not sure if it's possible to transfer).
That's all for now
Thank you


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 9:39 pm 
Offline
Pwnzer
Pwnzer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 4573
Location: Canada, ON
COD hitboxes arent so good. How much gun fire does someone take from a sniper rifle headshot and still stand up and fire back at me.

_________________
Image
Terms of Use||TC:E + W:ET EULA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 2:42 am 
Offline
Forum Master
Forum Master
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 12:48 am
Posts: 1239
Maybe they should add something so if you get shot in the head and don't die, by some freakish luck, you should see a blur and your aim will hinder for a few seconds along with your walking and running. The screen will become a reddish blur as your move along. All of the bullets hitting the ground are magnified and more visible and nothing else is... Pretty *i-need-a-broader-vocab* up bullet time huh? :P

~Silentcrisis

_________________
Image

/Dragonathon

TC:E/ET username = Silentcrisis


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:14 am 
Offline
Pwnzer
Pwnzer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 4573
Location: Canada, ON
yup thats good, but how do we know if that really happens. who of us eve got shot on the head and survived to tell us what heppened when they tried to walk?

_________________
Image
Terms of Use||TC:E + W:ET EULA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 8:10 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:38 am
Posts: 357
I stand by my original posts with respect to Tactical Realism and scale game design; it's all right here -- in the scatter boxes (not to be confused with hit boxes):

Image

Realistic damage, realistic armor, realistic tatically coverable 'soft targets', scale... If you get too elaborate with hit code, hit box design, and damage scale -- things go to hell in a hurry...

Following my illustration which is based on one of the most realistic scale sim and game damage models developed (by RSE) you get all the realistic benefits of:

    1. a realistically challenging 'man-target' model
    2. easy open PVA take down shots for idiot 'Rambo' players
    3. realistic head target for scale marksmanship 'Head Shot' kill
    4. realistic body and head armor
    4. targets that encourage realistic cover maneuver and fire

The way this plays out in games (I'm not guessing here, I'm speaking from Developer experience) is that the large easy to hit pelvic target discourages uncovered 'Run & Gun', it also encourages the use of leaning, and use of cover -- but still makes for a large soft target behind penetrable cover. You can still damage and kill player with center chest and head shots that hit armor/helmet -- but it will take multiple shots (five or more on-center)...

Realistic target areas will punish unrealistic, skilless 'spray & pray' and arcade 'run & gun', reward practiced precision marksmanship, and players that fire and move as a team -- realistically with fast clean kills; but it will take skill, and a realistic 'to scale' amount of skill...

I don't care at all what ends up in the Arcade/Action CTF and Random Spam Death Match modes for a damage model -- it can be twinked with is much arcade, histrionic "I saw it in a Movie!" affectation as Fans for those games kick and scream for or the Devs care to bother with.

But if the "Objecti9ve Mod" is going to offer something to meet the advertise promise of 'Scale' and wants to be something that attracts the Tactical Realism crowd -- it better well steer clear of some of the ridiculous suggestions being posted on these and the 'official' forums...

There's an enormous and burned RSE Tactical Realism Fan base looking for a Scale TacSim/TacRealism game to rally around, contribute to, Mod, and pour time and their various hobby craft into from League and Ladder building, to Fan Sits, to alternative game assets. I hope TC:E's 'Objective Mod' will have enough scale realism in its damage metrics to achieve that end.

Δ


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:19 am 
Offline
Pwnzer
Pwnzer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 4573
Location: Canada, ON
the only problem is, no matter how hard you make shooting, people still play as Rambo. Only a few people are smart enough to play as a team in any game.

_________________
Image
Terms of Use||TC:E + W:ET EULA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 11:34 am 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:38 am
Posts: 357
You are correct, but, with a realistic damage model the 'Rambo' will be punished by dieing for his lack of thought, tactics, marksmanship and coordinated teamwork.

Realistic game metrics reward realistic game-play. That doesn't mean the game won't still have a full spectrum of play 'styles' just that those that play more realistically, as in other tactical realism games, employing a more realistic skill set -- will prevail much more often.

Δ


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 12:00 pm 
Offline
Pwnzer
Pwnzer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 4573
Location: Canada, ON
but just imagine a rambo who can make a split second headshot between the eyes, what stops them from being one man armies with the realistic armor? only another skilled sniper.

_________________
Image
Terms of Use||TC:E + W:ET EULA


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:03 pm 
Offline
Master
Master
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:38 am
Posts: 357
If TC:E has the realistic, scale weapon metrics it promises to have no 'Rambo' is going to be able to shoot accurately on the run, neither will weapons settle to maximum accuracy instantly when you stop running; this is as it's done in countless other Tactical Realism games, making fantasy Rambo run & gun usless against more realistic tactics, weapon handling and marsmanship.

Have you ever even played any tactical realism games XenoKiLLer? If your talking about TC:E's Arcade/Action game modes, or it's present arcade realism weapon and damgae metrics -- then we are talking about very different game genres...

Δ


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 106 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Style created by © Matti, gry komputerowe, reklama sem reklama seo

Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group