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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:57 am 
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hoak wrote:
I'd be glad to illustrate something that offers a good balance of modern armored realism, and what's practical with-in the constraints of game hit code resolution -- and would really like to do it on the same image
Dragonathan?
:D


i've send an unedited image wich you can use and edit,
open your pm box.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:28 am 
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(see post on previous page for discussion)

As far as actual hit box dimensions and placement -- if the WET hit box is similar to Q3A which I've toyed wtih; I'd suggest something along these lines:

Image

Here colors do represent actual resistance to damge:

Green takes multiple hits of even highest caliber ammunition... Yellow are 'gimp-able' targets that require one to three hits for effect on the smallest hit box that can practically be created in WET depending on the caliber and range. Orange targets are optional (I'd probably omit them, and avoid arm damage all together) and represent the vulnerable open areas of most body armor and relatively soft entries -- these would have a similar damage scale to the yellow targets but would be offer additive casual effects that would be ultimately lethal. Lastly are the violet 'soft targets' that would be lethal hit areas in one or two hits depending on caliber and range.

It may be possible to create different size hit boxes from front to back in WET by using overlapping hit boxes....

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 9:02 pm 
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so, by that you mean that headshots arent really that effective. I have heard of headshot survivors somewhere before. I guess it is the best to shoot between the eyes where the skull isnt as thick.

those hit boxes seem more correct. although if we were to use more complciated hitboxes not every part of th vest has an equall amount of protection right? I believe its the sides that are vulnerable, somewhere around the seams.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:35 pm 
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Umm... groin shots would be crippling, not lethal. :P

Unless your balls are connected directly to your spinal cord. :P

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:09 pm 
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its not that far down. he mean by the hips on the area "around" the groin

this is post number 1000 :P

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2006 11:55 pm 
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gratz on 1k posts :shock:

I like the way those hitboxes are set up. looks good.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:01 am 
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ty. 8) you know now that i thought of it, a shot on the groin can kill you. not just the amount of blood, since the damn thing is a blood vessel wrapped sausage, lol. sarcasm k, you would die of blood lost not to mention shock and pain.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 2:09 am 
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ike hoak said, the pelvis is full of blood vessels.
the main ones from your leg go in there (clip one and yer gone in about 15 minutes max.) and you have a ton of organs too. your friggin kidneys, the blood-filters themselves, are in there. and the bladder. nothin hurts more than gettin shot, then peeing your pants. through a hole in the front. :oops:

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 6:40 am 
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XenoKiLLer wrote:
so, by that you mean that headshots arent really that effective.

No! I'm just saying head shots are not as effective as games often make them out to be with smaller caliber weapons.

Statistically the number of 9mm rounds hitting an unarmored skull that will graze, bounce, spaul (or all three) is quite high. Of course the larger caliber the round, the more directly on axis the shot is -- the more likely it is to penetrate and do catastrophic and/or lethal damage.

But, a contemporary Elite soldier wearing body armor and a helmet offers a very small unarmored frontal facial/head target (and virtually none from the back), that's very difficult to hit under the pressure of combat.

XenoKiLLer wrote:
I have heard of headshot survivors somewhere before. I guess it is the best to shoot between the eyes where the skull isnt as thick.

I was speaking in general terms, with respect to armored and unarmored targets... By way of a specific comparison of reality to True Combat: Elite as it is now, most Gamers even if they had comparable real world training and skill would find hitting and killing a man wearing body armor and helmet much more difficult IRL then they do in the game. The real world target is smaller, must be hit dead on with light pistol ammunition to avoid an ineffective graze and spaul shot, and even level III armor will stop a virtually unlimited number of 9mm rounds cold, as will a Kevlar helmet.

In the case of an armored combatant the pelvic girdle offers a much larger and softer target than a helmet protected head -- that can have much more certain 'hit' and 'take down' probability under pressure.

XenoKiLLer wrote:
those hit boxes seem more correct. although if we were to use more complciated hitboxes not every part of th vest has an equal amount of protection right? I believe its the sides that are vulnerable, somewhere around the seams.

It depends on the vest, the best vests available offer incredible protection literally from your chin to just below your navel; armholes are well protected by upper arm armor, and neck with a dam... Add a loin plate to this affair, and ballistic face shield and while not invincable you're amazingly well protected.

Silentcrisis wrote:
Umm... groin shots would be crippling, not lethal. :P

Unless your balls are connected directly to your spinal cord. :P

Don't confuse the pelvic girdle with the groin; the pelvic girdle is anatomically a much larger and more vulnerable target that incudes roughly everything from your belly button to the groin -- the effective area even includes the upper most inside frontal area of your quadriceps as your femoral artery is very exposed.

Your pelvic girdle acts like a big bullet funnel that as discussed on the previous page not only catches bullets with the large bone masses of your pelvis and spine -- but typically ricochets and spauls the penetrating projectile causing massive multiple path damage... A 9mm bullet to this area can do as much functional damage as literally being cut in half by large artillery munitions. Compare that to the 9mm round that will bounce off someone's head and you have an idea how vulnerable this area is.

A rough look at the vulnerable anatomy of the pelvic area might help some appreciate how you soft a target this area offers:

Image Image
Clicky For Large Images

You can see the massive abdominal aorta, mesenteric, iliac, and gonadal arteries are close together, right inside the reflective area of the pelvis... All these arteries are easily ruptured, severed or lacerated -- projectile damage here typically more closely approximates shattering and you can bleed out as fast or faster then many chest wounds -- and there's no effective place to apply pressure to stem the inevitable...

Also in close proximity are the heavily vascularized organs like the kidneys that hemorrhage profusely when perforated, torn or ruptured.

Then there's the massive and very vulnerable nerve roots that are easily torn, lacerated and severed causing instant crippling pain, unconsciousness, or permanent paralysis -- not to mention the large bone masses of the spine, pelvis and hip area that if fractured or shattered is totally cripling...

The hard and tough 'Elite Man Of War's' lower belly is a soft bag of fragile exposed guts that are easily eviscerated in crippling pain, hemorrhage, or outright paralysis -- that can lead to death as swift as many head wounds.

Certainly a well placed 7.62 or .5 BMG round that functionally or literally decapitates is a more certain kill then three rounds to the pelvic girdle (though barely so... But statistically more men in combat are casually injured (taken out of action by crippling injury) then killed -- and for the purposes of a realistic game it really doesn't matter whether your dead, unconscious from blood loss, crippled with pain, or literally paralyzed from grotesque and catastrophic injury...

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:03 am 
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I get what you mean. I dont mind if the devs make it harder to kill. Thatll force those no0bs to keep shoting at waste their ammo hitting my helmet. What im gonna do now is aim for between their eyes. and their pevices.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 11:59 am 
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Well don't aim for the pelvis in TC:E unless they mod the hit-system... As things are now your most effective target is aiming for a players neck...

If they modded the hit system, you should still be very effective with head shots but you should have to aim carefully and use semi-auto fire for effective hits, even a light recoil MP-5 will spray wide on a target as narrow as a helmeted head at realistic ranges of engagement.

Adding a realistic lower abdominal/pelvic hit would add a lot of realistic element to the game -- players will naturally seek cover, prone more, use leaning more realistically, and support their team running in the open with cover fire more (because they'll need it more). The net result will be more realistic, sustained fire-fights based on realistic aimed select fire and supressive fire....

But that's a big "if"...

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:24 pm 
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Post 1000... well, screw you. :P

I'll hopefully make Forum Master soon enough. :(

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2006 9:28 pm 
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lol. Id like to thats implemented. but that means I cant do my jump from the ledge on to the unsuspecting enemy and shoot them from behind tactic.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 9:24 am 
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Not So! There are still soft small targets that a stealthy precision attack from the rear sould be able to exploit -- a single shot or knife strike to the neck for example...

You should probably be required to have a larger caliber handgun to effect a one shot kill -- something that's a real nail driver like the H&K Mk23 SOCOM...

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2006 1:48 pm 
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Hmm... I never knew the SOCOM Pistol was H&K...

Stealth is a benefactor in this game, for I usually make a lot of nice kills by sneaking up on the enemies and supressing them with a burst fire from my silenced weapon.

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