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 Post subject: tactical and realism
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 6:36 am 
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Coroner wrote:
Hi everyone,

as most of you know, TCE practically serves two different audiences: OBJ and BC players. Every now and then an OBJ player might join a BC server for some quick action (I do it at least), otherwise both audiences might not have much in common. Currently, OBJ and BC are separated by one-life/respawn and objective/no objective. Additionally, BC server seem to offer more all-weapon scripts which basically disable penalties for lamers.
As some of you might remember, one of the goals of TCE's "minimod" feature was to introduce more differences to gametypes which essentially make different gametypes a new mod (called minimod). In the current version, this feature is limited to different UI backgrounds and limits for the server settings as well as the absence of gametype switching options at runtime.
Internally, we have been kicking around some ideas of finally splitting TCE in a minimod which fully goes in the direction of "tactical realism" and one which more strictly follows the rules of "action realism". We feel that by doing this step, both, OBJ and BC players could be served much better. TCE's future "tactical realism" minimod could have a 1-life and a reinforced objective gametype, while the "action realism" minimod would offer team survivor (Elimination) and Bodycount.
The tactical section of TCE would probably much stronger restrict unrealistic movement modes and model effects of damage/wounding/movement/accuracy to a much higher degree of detail than now. The action section might become a bit faster again and generally more arcady in the direction of 0.48. While serious shooting will always require tac mode in the action minimod even a optional xhair might be thinkable in the action minimod.

Please share your comments!


ok now i want the whole community to be honest, if you had to choose between xhair and my "first person hipaim view butt and barrel of the gun pointing towards exactly 12 o clock idea" read details: http://www.truecombat.us/forums/viewtop ... 41&start=0

which one would u choose, and u cant say "none"..
all i have to say is that is more challenging if the butt and the barrel of the gun pointing towards 12 o clock from the hipaim view, than having xhair,
plus its much more realistic,

however... i 100% agree with the action mode being more arcade,
because if u have an action mode ingame, it will open allot of new possibilities to change concepts, such as "sci fi theme" "sci fi interface" "ghost recon type of hud witch is possible watch this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT5vwqNDulA " "proto type weopons"
"wall hug" "ect. ect."
just evrything that was hindered by the "realism theme",

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Last edited by Dragonathan on Fri May 18, 2007 11:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 10:32 am 
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Well in general most of us here can actually shoot close to mid range fairly accurately without TAC mode or a crosshair and I am very sure many players can do that.

Actually if the game were to be more realistic - and the guns are by default at waist level you shouldnt even see them. However most of the time they are in rested position which explains why you see them. Also when running you do not necessarily have to put the gun away just not be able to point and shoot.

Sure they can make the game more and more realistic to the same direction AA is heading. But as seen from AA, there is a risk, not everybody will like those "improvements". Im sure its good for TCE.

Lastly, making a hud like ghost recon doesnt fit with the timeline of TCE. Its set in the 80s. Although monocle computers are available today they are not even widley used by the military today nor were they widely used back then in the 80s. What would really make TCE very realistic and the complete removal of the hud - not even a map, status, ammocounter, or anything-that is realism.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 10:37 am 
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XenoKiLLer wrote:
Lastly, making a hud like ghost recon doesnt fit with the timeline of TCE. Its set in the 80s. Although monocle computers are available today they are not even widley used by the military today nor were they widely used back then in the 80s. What would really make TCE very realistic and the complete removal of the hud - not even a map, status, ammocounter, or anything-that is realism.


but Coroner mentioned action mode, the tactical should be realistic indeed, but the action mode could have some fiction involved to pump up more action,

as Coroner said, there will be tactical mode"realism theme", and action mode"arcady theme"

the action mode isnt sepose to be realistic at all, thats why it wont be such a problem to add some sci-fi/fiction,

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 2:48 pm 
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crosshair versus ironsights all the time. hmm. well, considering that without the sights up the guns are fery inaccurate, and since it's already worked for CoD, crosshair.


also, the game is set in the 80's. the fact the G36, UMP and blazer R93 are in-game should be sci-fi enough. and the action-theme would be (or, should I say, is) CTF/BC, which already stray away from realism enough. adding modern sci-fi would simply demolish the realism, making it just another game with ironsights.I'd rather keep the game more to it's roots.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:27 pm 
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Dragonathan wrote:
XenoKiLLer wrote:
Lastly, making a hud like ghost recon doesnt fit with the timeline of TCE. Its set in the 80s. Although monocle computers are available today they are not even widley used by the military today nor were they widely used back then in the 80s. What would really make TCE very realistic and the complete removal of the hud - not even a map, status, ammocounter, or anything-that is realism.


but Coroner mentioned action mode, the tactical should be realistic indeed, but the action mode could have some fiction involved to pump up more action,

as Coroner said, there will be tactical mode"realism theme", and action mode"arcady theme" the action mode isnt sepose to be realistic at all, thats why it wont be such a problem to add some sci-fi/fiction


By that he didnt mean fictional (at the time or anything scifi). What that means is that the gameplay will be less restrictive and much faster.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 9:56 pm 
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XenoKiLLer wrote:
By that he didnt mean fictional


he mentioned optional Xhairs, that is pretty much fictional right?

please dont answer you reply with bunch of theories,
just answer yes or no,

from now on i will teach u how to be more logical, so its much easier to discuss things with out having argues about the most unnecessary things

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 10:03 pm 
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I would like to see where coroner mentioned crosshairs. maybe on aimpoint.reflex systems, but nowhere else could I see it work.

also, you are not in the position to tell a moderator what he/she cannot say. as long as it's within the limited free speech allowed here, xeno can say whatever he wants. so can any other user here.

I could start trolling, but I don't feel like it/don't want to get banned.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue May 08, 2007 11:23 pm 
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Dragon, Im going to be open with you. Do you know that you should have been banned months ago? If you continue acting like this other people's opinions - it only proves immaturity unsuited for this forum. If you are really as smart and as mature as you say you are, act like it. What you just did is considered as flaming. Not to mention you are flaming a mod, and not just me. We would really like you to stay in the forum but if you continue to behave this way we will have to cut the rope. This goes for everyone. I have a quick link tot he terms of use under my sig for reference if you wish to read it.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Back on topic: Crosshiars arent fictional, those are overlays. Monocle computers with crosscomm technology in the 80s is fictional. Also, fictional is only used to describe things of literary context not something that is drawn over something else as a guide. Thats like saying the labels on bottles are fictional. They are only there to guide and are not really part of the subject/object.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 12:05 pm 
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I replied to this thread on the 'official forums'; and wonder if Coroner even reads or patronizes these forums?

Especially so considering the ridiculous moderation of those forums...

:?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu May 10, 2007 8:45 pm 
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Hmm I dont know. I think he does stop by reading both forums ocassionally but I doubt that he rants that often. Its much stricter over there than here.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 11:52 pm 
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If does read them he probably laughs his ass off at some ppl idiotic comments

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 12:55 pm 
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XenoKiLLer wrote:
Actually if the game were to be more realistic - and the guns are by default at waist level you shouldnt even see them. However most of the time they are in rested position which explains why you see them. Also when running you do not necessarily have to put the gun away just not be able to point and shoot.


i opened a thread a long time ago about the model's weopon position, the thread is removed, on that thread i said that if the models holding the weopon near the hip erea than u wouldnt see the weopon on your screen at all, http://www.truecombat.us/forums/viewtop ... 59&start=0

and you said that i said was not true, i was trying to convince u 5 times that it was true, and now u changed your mind??? wow.............

XenoKiller wrote:
Back on topic: Crosshiars arent fictional, those are overlays. Monocle computers with crosscomm technology in the 80s is fictional. Also, fictional is only used to describe things of literary context not something that is drawn over something else as a guide. Thats like saying the labels on bottles are fictional. They are only there to guide and are not really part of the subject/object.


oh wait, u also said that huds are unrealistic right?
XenoKiller wrote:
if the game is to be more realistic and immersive, removing hud displays, this includes the names over the heads, is the best and only option.

source: http://www.truecombat.us/forums/viewtop ... 43&start=0

just to prove how hypocritical u are xeno,

XenoKiller wrote:
Dragon, Im going to be open with you. Do you know that you should have been banned months ago?

What you just did is considered as flaming. Not to mention you are flaming a mod, and not just me. We would really like you to stay in the forum but if you continue to behave this way we will have to cut the rope.


i should have been banned months ago? than why am i still not banned?
because im not doing anything unethical, thats why the admins have no reasons to ban me,
if im doing anything against the forum rules diane would allready pm't me,

i wasnt flaming, and i wasnt being close minded,
the only thing i did was pointing out how wrong u are, "wich i do very often"

look, if u want me to eccept your opinions, than please show me true facts,
and please read.

thanks, have a nice day, i know u r going to be mad again because i showed true facts and u didnt. but u know why? because i am smart,
and im not doing anything childish and immature.

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Last edited by Dragonathan on Fri May 18, 2007 7:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2007 3:17 pm 
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HUD != crosshair.

crosshairs do exist in some forms, however they're usually put on the sight. namely, scopes and reflex sights.

also, YES. you WOULD see the weapon if you held it at your hip. remember, the shortest hip-shot weapon in the game (MAC 10) is about the size of a large handgun. from a hip position, you can easily see the weapon. judging from videos/photos, it is about the size of the Pocket Oxford dictionary on my desk (why is it called a pocket oxford? it's about as big as an average dictionary :? )

Holding it from the bottom, simulating a pistol grip and proper stance, it is in my field of view. it's not in the way, nor would I really notice it normally, but I don't do that to the in-game guns as well.

one more thing, knock off the trolling. it's not doing anything other than digging your grave deeper. You may bot think you are, but we (the mod team) do. and that's all that matters.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 2:04 am 
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Uh what is hyprocritical about what I said? I said huds are unrealistic, monocle computers in TCE's theme and timeline are unrealistic. Therefore realism equals no HUD and definitely NO MONOCLE COMPUTER.

As for holding the gun right in the middle of your chest, thats asking for a set of broken ribs. A gun is held with the stock rested on the arm towards the side, this forces the user to stand at an angle (this angle gives support on their legs and stability for the weapon when firing) the TAC mode in the game is how the gun should appear but it is never really centered to your body facing directly 90 degrees off your chest. Next, who the hell holds a fully automatic weapon by the waist? The game is like that because the Quake3 model format is built that way, Quake 3 was never a realistic game and the Quake 3 engine was build especially for that purpose. Firing from the hip is just plain stupid and holding it from the hip is also very stupid and last I recall with the length and shape of the gun, thats rather hard to hold it that way.

It has to be chest level and rested on the arm (stock). Also, the 1st person view should barely show the weapon at all, just the near top. - ofocurse in TAC more only the sights. They only made the weapons visible in these fps games so that people can admire the handy work of the artists upclose.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2007 3:32 am 
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XenoKiLLer wrote:
Uh what is hyprocritical about what I said? I said huds are unrealistic, monocle computers in TCE's theme and timeline are unrealistic. Therefore realism equals no HUD and definitely NO MONOCLE COMPUTER.


but u also said that "crosshairs" "no monocle computer" arent fictional,
so it means ur saying that crossshairs are not "unrealistic"
i used the word fictional and maybe it wasnt the right word to use but it was ment informally, its like saying: "TCe's model's suck" <-- yes we all know that the model's dont suck, but we all know they look horrible, but if u took the word suck as an informal than u would interpret suck and horrible as the same words,

XenoKiLLer wrote:
the hip is also very stupid and last I recall with the length and shape of the gun, thats rather hard to hold it that way.


now i hope u dont change your opinion again somewhere in the future.
and hope the devs did changed the model's horrible unrealistic weapon positions on the next version,

but on topic:
i really like the action mode idea, it opens new possibilities for new concepts, concepts that always have been a problem to implement due to the struggles with the realism issue,

perhaps there could be a stealth mode in the future, that would be awesome
1.tactical mode
2.action mode
3.stealth mode

3 themes in 1 game, wikked!!

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