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Weapon loadout isn't fair !
http://www.truecombatelite.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=120
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Author:  Heretic [ Sun May 08, 2005 12:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Weapon loadout isn't fair !

How come all the Russian weapons are in terrorist loadout? Isn't there a Russian spetial forces? Maybe missions with snow would accept Russian spetsnaz skin/model? Why is it such generalisation that all the specs are West and all the terrorists are east? Is it fair?

Author:  c0m1ng3vil [ Sun May 08, 2005 6:11 pm ]
Post subject: 

LOL! Never thought of it that way before.

Author:  Gator69 [ Sun May 08, 2005 7:03 pm ]
Post subject: 

Yes there is a Russian Elite force. The Spetsnaz, quite decent soldiers. Most recently they were seen in the Russian theater and school seiges.

The problem here I think is the game portrays a group of "operators" combined form the spec ops of the world.

It's actually somewhat realistic as, for example, the U.S. special forces currently train with the British SAS for example.

You'd NEVER see this sort of cooporation with the Russians.

If anything, you would see these groups shooting AT each other rather than working together.

Now as for the weapons. AK's have flooded EVERY black market in the world for years. They have been used in the U.S. for example by all sorts of criminals.

They are probably the MOST easily accessible AR on the planet. I could go out right this minute and buy one for less than $400 LEGALLY. Hell I've owned and sold two already, great guns for the money!

It's a point that has been aruged for quite sometime now. BUT the fact remains, Criminals and Terrorists will use whatever they can get EASILY.

They would not risk blowing an "operation" by trying to procure a QUANITY of SIG's or Colt M4 SOCOMs and getting caught, when they could readily get AK's and Mac-10's and UZI's and the like for much less cost, and with less risk of being caught.

Criminals and Terrorosts have to keep a low profile, they are seriously out paced by informants, and technology (example: they do not have access to satallite surveillence)

Author:  ISMOLATOR [ Sun May 08, 2005 8:47 pm ]
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He? Isnt for example korea full of terrorists? they build nukes, buy combat jets, rockets, tanks and alot of weapons aside from ak's wich they could use or sell to anyone they want
you know terrorists is just what you want them to be. The word itself is just the new excuse for "lets invade their country and kill their people and take their oil"
There is no plausible reason why not some super rich guy / group could get superior weapons somewhere and sell it to some random mercenary unit that decides one day to attack something you will never ever hear of. The power of the media is strong tho. Keep believing what the media tells you and you will stay blind to reality.

Remember that in future missions you will be able to access computers and use laptops etc...doesnt sound like something a east block ak wielding peasent would search in a school full of minors....
think more of a high tech thriller combat simulation instead of a some utterly lame attempt to recreate real world terror actions that would still never reflect reality nor would it play well. Remember its just a game and the primary goal is to make it a competitve tactical one. No one ever said it would reflect real world terror scenarios. Think about it...who would want to blow up a school with 400 minors in it killing 200 of them....

The asymetric war is today, tomorrow things could change.

Author:  Gator69 [ Sun May 08, 2005 10:48 pm ]
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So your impling some sort of "James Bond" type super villain with a personal army ....yeah thats....realistic

When do we get the BMW with the oil slick and the missle launchers?

Surely such a thing COULD be built since money is no object.

Maybe we can have a mission where the objective is to blow up the moon too...

I'm sorry I thought you guys were trying to at least give a NOD to realism. I guess I was wrong.

Fantasy thriller scifi stuff is fun too though....hell we can have experimental weapons like the OICW and shit in that case...since we are going hollywood.

As for the N. Koreans, they are armed with the AK and it's variants.
The russians "sold" them several factories.

For a time we imported Korean AK's into the market here. They were ok.

REALISTICALLY speaking:

West vs. China works.
West vs. Russia is also believable.
Clearly west vs. middle eastern nation of your choice works.

As for your "uber" criminals, a few well place submarine launched Tomahawk cruise missles would take care of them.

Also please note, in the US it's NOT legal for the miltary to operate internally, that is left to the FBI, US marshals, and Local Law enforcement.

Author:  ISMOLATOR [ Sun May 08, 2005 11:36 pm ]
Post subject: 

:roll: :roll: :roll:

no

lets start with the point that realism and reality are still 2 different things
The other is that everything in (all) games right now is FAR from reality.

Actually realistically we can assume that NON of the participants has anything but AK's because there has never been an armed incident with eastern terrorists in the US and most of the western world were the terrorists had automatic weapons so we have to assume its somwhere down the east and its more or less a war scenario and not a terrorist action in a safe and protected western urban env.

booom tce just went out of the window because tce just doesnt want to be a war game...

Now quit the nonesense and accept the game can be a tactical realism game without having to stick to some made up real-terror-dogma that you got fed by the tv.....
yet I bet there is 10000x more crimes happening in the us with automatics (non ak's) happening about everyday there and usually involves *western* people

Author:  ISMOLATOR [ Sun May 08, 2005 11:47 pm ]
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and the original poster is right the west vs east thing is a cliche.
The game should have a balanced and well sorted weapon arsenal. No matter how realistic colt vs ak is its gotten overused. And to prevent any arguments TCE is not a wargame. Most of the arguments about real world scenarios would not allow a western based scenario. There is no such western based realworld scenario in reality now and even less so one that does not belong directly or indirectly to a war wich automatically disqualifies it for tce anyway.

good nite. Trauma PM me where you uploaded your model so I can UV it for you :P

Author:  Gator69 [ Mon May 09, 2005 3:32 am ]
Post subject: 

ISMOLATOR wrote:
booom tce just went out of the window because tce just doesnt want to be a war game...


yet I bet there is 10000x more crimes happening in the us with automatics (non ak's) happening about everyday there and usually involves *western* people


...Then TC:E doesn't need AR's or SMGs at all....or any other weapon or explosive for that matter....we can all run around and pass out flowers I guess. Hate to break this to you, but ANY game where the objective is to use assault weapons and destroy objectives IS a war game.

Quote:
Looking at the broader picture of all gun use in crime, it becomes clear that "assault weapons" are a minor part of the problem. Police gun seizure data from around the nation finds that "assault weapons" account for less than 2% of guns seized by the police; more typically, they account for less than 1%, according to data compiled from 24 major jurisdictions.


LESS THAN 1%
Maybe YOU shouldn't listen to your PRO-gun control media....

Now I think it makes more sense for a game involving assault weapons to have SOME sort of point behind it.

I fail to see how suspending the realism of the combatants and weapon loadouts is a good thing.
Yet suspending the realism of gametypes and respawn is not.

Author:  ISMOLATOR [ Mon May 09, 2005 8:28 am ]
Post subject: 

are we here to talk about semantics or what?
My definition of war is open conflict with tanks heavy weapons and huge explosives. Non of wich is present in tce nor do we want themt o be in tce even tho they are HIGHLY REALISTIC and all of it has been present in recent *terror* actions. I repeat tce's goal ist to be a tactical realism game using the trademark tce urban environment and non political scheme. Call it fantasy or whatever you want but it is a good basis for a balanced game and doesnt prevent the game from actually using realistic metrics and tactical objective play. The weapon loadout was never meant to be realistic nor would it make sense in the game. For instance an eastern type of bad guy would certainly not use shotguns or mac10's or even aksusd not to mention the akmsd with rds, desert eagles and heavy sniper weapons...weee there goes 98% if the weapon selection. The main reason not to recreate realworld scenarios is 1) its impossible and even more so looking at the timeframe we have for it 2) its moraly very questionable 3) it would play like battlefield 2.
Realize there is no way we could do this right
I mean in right like in 100% realistic - for one because its nonesense and not part of the game we have nor has anyone ever said it is. I'm still wondering wich moron started making up these stories that tce is trying to simulate east vs west scenarios (other than that the original loadout had a lot of ak's wich was just because the dev team had not modelled any other guns to that point and still wanted to have sperate loadout for the 2 teams)
So let me point out the fact that this discussion has NO BASIS to begin with.

Now please end this stupid debate.

Author:  ISMOLATOR [ Mon May 09, 2005 9:23 am ]
Post subject: 

and btw 1% in the US is quite some heavy bits I would say and it leaves enough room for imagination and creating interesting scenarios. Compare it to germanys crime statistic were only 0.003% involves gun use. Most of wich are pistols (I think 98% of the time)

Anyway lets stop the soup please its getting cold.

Erm and last but not least I repeat once more. Its coroners game and ulitmately he decided what tce is or not. And we can be happy that it is that way. If he tell me tomorrow that the weapon loadout will be suddenly only feature realistic weapons including ak's rpgs and nade launchers, tanks and helicopters to accomodate a west vs east scenario and all maps are being flushed because he thinks its unrealistic (no GIF force anymore either) then so be it. Until then tce stays a small scale objective driven non-war teamplay shooter.

Author:  Heretic [ Mon May 09, 2005 2:02 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
If anything, you would see these groups shooting AT each other rather than working together.


Really? So the military consultant of an international spetial forces isn't Russian or in this case x-spetsnaz? So there were also no missions collaborated with Russians and other european forces? Oh and, yes, I would shoot you other then work with you for that matter, anyone would if you said it.

Quote:
I could go out right this minute and buy one for less than $400 LEGALLY
-- HAHAHAA, I'd love to see a terrorist legaly applying for a gun license. Or are you implying Disney land plastic AK's to shoot Mickey Mouse with since you're in Florida?

Gun market for terrorists is vast and believe me, they will not save pennys on something that will prevent them from completing their mission.


Quote:
You'd NEVER see this sort of cooporation with the Russians.


BULLSHIT
When was the last time you'd see Russian spetial forces shooting American or EU forces? Or are you a person who would be easily convinced that there are tanks in the middle of Sanct Peterburg with J.B. in command road killing bears on the way wearing the furry hats?

Quote:
They are probably the MOST easily accessible AR on the planet. I could go out right this minute and buy one for less than $400 LEGALLY. Hell I've owned and sold two already, great guns for the money!


Are you saying that I can't walk out and get FAMAS or the old M16 for that sort of price?

I am sorry, but your critique of my post is ... whats the word... bad.

Author:  Heretic [ Mon May 09, 2005 2:24 pm ]
Post subject: 

Quote:
REALISTICALLY speaking:

West vs. China works.
West vs. Russia is also believable.
Clearly west vs. middle eastern nation of your choice works.


Hmmm...

West vs. China in today's world, no, no go due to the present finantial state
West vs. Russia --- For what reason exactly? No, non believeble.
West vs. Middle eastern nation of our choice, no.

Specops vs. Terrorists --- YES, THAT IS THE ONLY GODDAMN THING THAT WORKS!!!

HOW DARE YOU CALL RUSSIA/CHINA/SOME MIDDLE EASTERN NATION TERRORIST ???!!!

There are individuals, but there are also American terrorist organisations, British, Sweedish, French and others, for a nation with a big population, percentage of assholes is always there.

Weren't 27 000 000 Russian solders killed by terrorist weapons along side countless numbers of British and American forces?

What is terrorism you may ask? GO TO THE FRIGGIN LIBRARY!

Modern world warfare you may ask? Not many things have changed.


I think it should work like this: Weapons of spetial forces against sticks and stones, since there are special forces all over the world that use all sorts of weapons.

When was the last time you have seen a terrorist with AK SOPMOD - that is PURELY a specop weapon ONLY availible for the Russian special forces.

You gave a very crude idea of generalisation of all the races putting one as a superior. That shell not be tolerated.

Quote:
Anyway lets stop the soup please its getting cold.


Hence above, that is rather an insult from Gator, I know it was not intended.

I have no problem with the game itself, I love TC:E and have been following it's progress step by step since 0.45 q3TC, But, I have asked the question for somebody to respond with their thoughts, but instead of that I recieved the defenition of who should be terrorist and who shouldn't.

Author:  ISMOLATOR [ Mon May 09, 2005 2:38 pm ]
Post subject: 

Easy guys, no reason to sweat it over such a trivial thing.


West vs. China
West vs. Russia

would not work unless you want just another made up fantasy scenario, but then we could also include james bond cars no? :twisted: :lol: :lol:

Author:  Heretic [ Mon May 09, 2005 2:41 pm ]
Post subject: 

And evil but sexy lesbians !!! :D

I'm sorry, I guess I have overreacted on this issue.

Anyways,

Happy V day!

Author:  Gator69 [ Mon May 09, 2005 6:54 pm ]
Post subject: 

Ok just a couple points:

No one is trying to say TCE is an east vs west combat simulator.
BUT if the map scripting coroner has stated he wants implimented is ever fully realized, it WOULD make sense to be able to do such realistic loadouts, on a per map basis.

Thats all I was trying to say. If the game is to remain a tactical shooter with "generic fantasy" combatants so be it.

Yes it will work, and make a nice balanced game.
It is ALSO unrealistic as hell.
But I'm all for gameplay over realism so no big deal. (CTF anyone?)

As for your comments on the availbilty of the AK over the M16 and the fama:
Yes M16's can be had here BUT

AK =$400
m16 = $1200 (USED)
I've NEVER seen a Fama for sale.

The AK is "the weapon of choice" for many street gangs and drug dealers here.

I do agree with Heretic, I too enjoy TCE, and it's fun to watch it grow as I did with q3tc .40-.45b12. Which IMO had a BETTER loadout system AND weapons than TCE, we don't really NEED numerous weapons all firing the same caliber.

Personally I'd FAR rather see an addon system (suppressors, RedDots, lasers, scopes ect) for a smallish number of weapons, that a zillion different guns that all do the same thing. (meaning caliber, range and damage are the same).

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