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Author:  -ATHF-FryLock [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 4:11 am ]
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Metal gear for the NES still wasn't the first sneaking game, just one of the first good ones. Particularly the arcade ones, which are often over looked.

Author:  XenoKiLLer [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:22 am ]
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and to conclude my point - Haze's main gameplay feature isnt new nor is it improved from what Crysis or FEAR has.

Author:  Dragonathan [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 6:31 pm ]
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-ATHF-FryLock wrote:
The fact that people improve on good features from other games is what keeps gaming good. I don't have a problem with people improving a pone other peoples idea's. Because most games that have a a truly new feature tend to suck balls. Not because the feature was lame, but because the developers were rushed, had a bad story, or Microsoft made it. The idea of sneaking was around before MGS1, it was in NES games, SNES games, Saga games, arcade games. MGS is just an improvement on those.

Tenchu, was out before MGS. It was a sneaking/action game. You could break necks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenchu:_Stealth_Assassins

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metal_Gear_Solid_1

It was out 7 months before MGS. Die hard had sneaking in it too, but it was not the main theme. Because it was a less hyped game, I would have to go through trouble finding a screen shot to prove it, and I'm lazy.


cant open tenchu and i dont think tenchu had the same features MGS had,

oh and you still didnt showed me a screenshot of die hard and syplon filter where u can see the same features MGS1 had,

as the dutches would say:
de waarheid komt altijd boven water,

im not sure if there is an english version of that but it means: the truth always comes above water,

Author:  -ATHF-FryLock [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 7:31 pm ]
Post subject: 

Tenchu was a sneaking/action game. The thing is, you chose weather you wanted to be sneak or fight, for the most part at lest. The game didn't have the leaning on wall feature MGS1 had, but instead you had to go near a corner and hit a button to peer around it. It also had first person in it, like MGS 2 did, but the first person wasn't used often, it was used for poison darts, which you rarely had, and the grappling hook, much like Zelda 64. Tenchu had coup de grace, which varied from slitting throats, breaking necks or a mean stab in the back. Fist fighting and sword play were the main combat feature. If you remember Resident evil 1 had the same aiming as in MGS 1, though it auto aimed in the non-directors cut version.

Tenchu came out before MGS1. It had sneaking, breaking necks, combat, first person mode, peering around corners, both fast and slow game play. It lacked the humor MGS 1 had, but MGS got its guard humor from Abe Odyssey.

I said in the post before, that I am not going to spend my time looking for Die hard screen shots. Syphlon filter, though an action game, had it's sneaking missions. All action games do, or at lest a large majority of them. Even Final Fantasy's have a sneaking part in some of their games. MGS games are good, but they are not innovative.

Also, I think it's odd that the link doesn't work for you, because it worked just fine for me, and it is a major site.

Author:  Dragonathan [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 8:55 pm ]
Post subject: 

*cough* *cough*

where is the the prove that die hard or syplon filter had the same features like MGS1!,

im still waiting for a screenshot where you claimed that die hard had wall hugging and breaking neck features,

Author:  -ATHF-FryLock [ Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:30 pm ]
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I've told you already, that I am too lazy to look for screen shots on a less well known game. It would take precious time that I could use looking at porn or reading a new book. You can count this as a statement with no backing, thus you can ignore the comment I made, or pull it out later, but you will always get the same type of response.

However, Tenchu is proof that MGS is not the first, not ground breaking, just a game that improves on features before its time. There we're other games before Tenchu, stealth games were on almost every system, including arcades. If you want to act like you never went to that link, then go ahead, because I know that you know Tenchu beat MGS. Your just a fan boy who will refuse to accept the truth, the game you worship is not worthy of the title "Truly Innovative", it is just another good game, not great, but good and fun.

I know there were games before Tenchu that had similar features, which is why I don't proclaim it innovative. It was a good game for it's time, but not good enough to keep it on the surface of my mind.


This is how I see it. Tenchu<MGS, MGS was more fun. They are made on the same concept, but MGS was an improved version of the same idea.
Another Example, Resident Evil<Silent Hill. Both based on the same idea, but Silent Hill was much better. See a pattern? The game before wasn't as good as the game before, this is true in most cases. Another Example, Ridge Racer<Grand Turismo. Both 3d racing games, yet GT was better.
Now this isn't always the case, most of the time games take a step back when trying to improve on an existing feature.

Face it, MGS isn't a ground breaking game that paved the way for future games. Half Life 1 played a big part in changing the way future games were. Because it was the first game with a decent AI. The enemies hide behind things when they have to reload, they would give each other covering fire. The smarter enemies would prevent you from taking decent cover. Half life 1 is one of the few games that really effected gaming by its self, which is why it got the best game EVER award from several gaming magazines. Most of those magazines still give it that title, but sadly, a few of them gave the title to half life 2.

EDIT: Also, I compared syphlon filter to MGS2, if you played siphlon filter, then you would know that it had a few sneak missions. Never did I say it had wall crawling or peering around corners. James Bond Golden Eye even had sneak missions. Almost every action game does. Most of the time, they are the one mission that makes you hate the game, simply because the game wasn't programmed for sneaking.

Author:  it [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:47 am ]
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-ATHF-FryLock wrote:
James Bond Golden Eye even had sneak missions. Almost every action game does. Most of the time, they are the one mission that makes you hate the game, simply because the game wasn't programmed for sneaking.


Actually, the ones in Goldeneye rocked, but that was because it was partly made for stealth. It is James Bond afterall.

I've played abunch of games with stealth missions. RTCW, Goldeneye, HL1, HL2, hell, even doom and doom 2 have some maps where stealth helps. Stealth is not a new thing, and really only was back in the days of the Magnavox Odyssey (A.K.A. the dawn of gaming.) All MGS did is improve upon stuff, and then it ws improved upon, and then the game that improved upon MGS was improved and so on and so on.

Author:  -ATHF-FryLock [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:38 pm ]
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Yes, but in golden eye you could fight your way through a majority of the stealth missions, but then again you could fight your way through most of MGS, or at lest I did the first time around.

Author:  Dragonathan [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 4:34 pm ]
Post subject: 

-ATHF-FryLock wrote:
I've told you already, that I am too lazy to look for screen shots on a less well known game. It would take precious time that I could use looking at porn or reading a new book. You can count this as a statement with no backing, thus you can ignore the comment I made, or pull it out later, but you will always get the same type of response.

However, Tenchu is proof that MGS is not the first,


try youtube, make a selfmade screenshot,
and you cant compare tenchu with MGS, tenchu didnt had the same features MGS! had, again if tenchu did had the same features i like to see screenshots,

infact you can ask professional game developers if MGS1 was revolutionary and innovative, i can assure you that all of them would say YES, try official forums of popular game publishers like ubisoft or whatever, ask your question there,

there is always one that started a new invention,
MGS1 is innovative because i havent seen features like breaking necks wall hugging, dragging dead bodies, corner popping, ect. ect. before MGS1 came, now you can keep contradicting me, i dont care... but if you have any prove that MGS1 didnt had any innovative features, than just show me screenshots of a game that was before MGS! and had the same features before MGS1,

again it is kinda useless discussing with me because your not very convinced what im saying, try a forum where there are professional developers, and ask them if MGS1 is innovative or not, and ask them if it did change the gaming scene, i hope then you will be more convinced,

a few years back when MGS1 was new, lots of game magazines declared MGS1 as revolutionary and innovative, hmmmmmmmmm funny though,
you think those professional game journalists that wrote articles about MGS1 were bullshitting?

P.S. TENCHU CAME IN 1998, THAT WAS BEFORE MGS1,

see you dont know nothing about games... nice try, very excited what your next excuse might be to avoid saying that MGS1 was innovative,

Author:  -ATHF-FryLock [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:22 pm ]
Post subject: 

Official forums and popular publishers call Halo a ground breaking game. As for screen shots of tenchu, I gave you a link that you claim doesn't work. Read through yourself. Tenchu beat MGS to the sneaking and peering around corners. The difference was is MGS made you get on the wall to change camera angles, while Tenchu made you hit a button to change the camera angle to view around corners. MGS made made it an action to view around corners, which was a good improvement. Now, if Tenchu was hyped as much as MGS, then people would look at tenchu as the innovative game, but the producers of Tenchu couldn't afford to over hype a game like MGS could. If you don't believe MGS was hyped, then your to young to remember all the hype that came out with it. MGS was hyped out the ass as well. Just because MGS was the first BIG game, doesn't mean it was the first of it's type. Face it dragon, MGS was just another hyped up game that improved on features around before it's time. Most games are, but that doesn't stop them from being good. Halo is a good example. It is a good game, but there is nothing unique about it. It is just a common place FPS that was both fun and hyped, which made a lot of people like it, and say it was ground breaking, but you and I both know that Halo isn't.


Dragon, I like how you keep ignoring the fact that most action games have sneaking in them. It just makes you seem all the more dismissive to the truth, which is why you are so ignorant what MGS really is.

Your a blind fanboy, and I will stop trying to get you to see the truth. Your to stubborn to accept the truth, and continuing this will only lead to a yu uh nu uh argument. If you fail to see that MGS isn't innovative by now, then you are just a sad sad little boy who can't accept that the game you glorify is nothing more than a common placed good game. No more than Halo, no more than splinter cell, no more than star craft. All good games, but none of them are ground breaking and innovative. If you really do like innovation in your games, then I suggest a wii and DS. you might find some innovation there, but no where else.

Author:  Dragonathan [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:54 pm ]
Post subject: 

-ATHF-FryLock wrote:
Official forums and popular publishers call Halo a ground breaking game. As for screen shots of tenchu, I gave you a link that you claim doesn't work. Read through yourself. Tenchu beat MGS to the sneaking and peering around corners.


omg.. this guy is stubborn,
dude MGS1 was earlier than tenchu, infact i had a ps1 with a different chip i could play the newest japanese games and had MGS1 in 1997,

tenchu was in 1998, look at the wiki website you posted yourself,

-ATHF-FryLock wrote:
Official forums and popular publishers call Halo a ground breaking game.


show me links of the forum where they said that, and show me where you asked if MGS1 was innovative and revolutionary, show me their replies

-ATHF-FryLock wrote:
Face it dragon, MGS was just another hyped up game that improved on features around before it's time. Most games are, but that doesn't stop them from being good. Halo is a good example. It is a good game, but there is nothing unique about it. It is just a common place FPS that was both fun and hyped, which made a lot of people like it, and say it was ground breaking, but you and I both know that Halo isn't.


MGS over hyped? oh so euhm.... all the top developers that claimed MGS1 was innovative and revolutionary and thanked MGS1 for their features are hyping up MGS1 right? and HALO is shitty, havent even contributed anything to the gaming scene game features wise,

-ATHF-FryLock wrote:
Dragon, I like how you keep ignoring the fact that most action games have sneaking in them. It just makes you seem all the more dismissive to the truth, which is why you are so ignorant what MGS really is.


as i mentioned it so many times, show me screenshots of games that had exactly the same features MGS1 had before MGs1 came on the ps1, show me,

-ATHF-FryLock wrote:

Your a blind fanboy, and I will stop trying to get you to see the truth. Your to stubborn to accept the truth, and continuing this will only lead to a yu uh nu uh argument. If you fail to see that MGS isn't innovative by now, then you are just a sad sad little boy who can't accept that the game you glorify is nothing more than a common placed good game. No more than Halo, no more than splinter cell, no more than star craft. All good games, but none of them are ground breaking and innovative. If you really do like innovation in your games, then I suggest a wii and DS. you might find some innovation there, but no where else.


example: the russians were the first one went into space,therefore the russian are innovative, i can give you more examples but point is, if someone invented something new, than that someone is innovative,
like MGS1, kojima invented features that werent used in any other games,
"i know you disagree, but you still havent showed me screenshots of games that were before MGS1 and had the same features as MGS1"

so you call me a fanboy and little sad boy? than all the top game developers who said that MGS1 was innovative and revolutionary must be sad little boys/fanboys in your eyes huh!?

-ATHF-FryLock wrote:
If you really do like innovation in your games, then I suggest a wii and DS. you might find some innovation there, but no where else.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

lijk i said "waarheid komt altijd boven water" "truth always comes above water" no.. your a fanboy,

i find it funny how you change topics and how your are avoiding facts,
answer this question: so all the game developers and game journalists that said that MGS1 was innovative and revolutionary and changed the gaming scene are "according to you sad boys and fanboys" right? i know you havent said that, but i did said that and you said that i was a sad boy and a fanboy, but if you think the way you think about me, than you must think the same way about all the other top game developers and game journalist's that said the same thing i said,

again pass me screenshots of die hard and syplon filter where you could see the same features MGS1 had, but it has to be a version before MGS1 came out, im sure you can find it on google, if your willing to put allot of effort in denying a true fact, than im sure you dont mind putting effort in finding screenshots of die hard trilogy where you claimed it had breaking necks and wall hugging features,

Author:  it [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:32 pm ]
Post subject: 

Release dates from the articles that you were given:

Tenchu:
Flag of Japan February 26, 1998

MGS:
JPN September 3, 1998 for PS1
JPN 1999-06-24 (June 24)

it was SHOWN at E3 in '97, and only had a playable demo in 1998 at the Tokyo game show, which was likely after february. (source: http://www.classicgaming.com/metalgear/history.html)

Question for frylock: do you mean the C64/NES Die Hard ('91) Or the Die Hard Trilogy for the PS ('96)?

for Dragon/Fry (if he wants to post screens)
There are screens and stuff at HERE for the PS1 and HERE for the NES if you want some.


Also, cool it down, it's starting to lean toward personal attacks. I'm going to put this down as warning #1.

Author:  -ATHF-FryLock [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:48 pm ]
Post subject: 

Both of the Die Hards had some sneaking it, but very little. Or so I believe, I only played the older one for a short time. Also, I forgot how ugly the PS1 game was.

Dragon, I call you a fan boy because you worship the PS3 and metal gear solid. I am not saying that MGS is a bad game, it is a good game, but it is not nearly as good as you think. You rave about MGS and it's innovation. I like all three system, and I do believe the PS3 is the strongest, but the wii is something new, which is why I prefer it. I like the MGS games, I like Halo, I like PC games, of all sorts. You get called a fan boy because of you always go on about PS3 and its greatness, and refuse to see it as a game that didn't come up with whole new features.

Tenchu wasn't the first game to be a sneaking based game, and it may or may not be the one to have a action that lets you change the camera angle to get a good view around the corner. In MGS the action that let you peer around a corner wasn't just a button, but an action, which was putting snakes body against the wall. Tenchu just had a button, no action, but the idea and feature was already there. Also, play Tenchu, you actually needed to sneak more than you do in MGS. For normal mode in MGS you could do most of the game by shooting your way through it. A lot of Tenchu missions made you start over when you got caught (That may have been Tenchu 2, so you can disregard that). Most games that have an innovative idea suck, and is why they go unseen, but other companies see what they did and can afford to make a better game and improve features. This is how gaming works, it is how it will always work, which is a good thing. Because the crappy game works as a beta, and allows the second developers to fix what people didn't like about it.

Metal Gear was a late 1998 game in Japan and early 1999 in America. Tenchu was released in America and japan in 1998, Feb 26 for Japan and August 31 in America. Unless years count backwards, then MGS came first.

MGS isn't a bad game, I liked it, I liked all of the ones that came out so far, except for the PSP card game. I'm not so obsessed with one console that I ignore and dismiss other games because they are not on PS. Like it or not, Halo was a good game. Not great in any way, but damed fun. You usually go off and say that its nothing but crap, just another generic FPS. I believe you sad Splinter Cell was a copy of MGS, though Splinter cell brought more to the sneaking genre than MGS. Splinter cell had a shadow meter as well as a sound meter, and you had to keep track of those. Instead of just staying out of sight like you do in MGS. Splinter cell also had more climbing. So if you want go on about a stealth based game, then go off about splinter cell, at lest it is truely stealth, not just an avoid the 75 degree view cone that the guards had.

Author:  Dragonathan [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:05 pm ]
Post subject: 

-ATHF-FryLock wrote:
Both of the Die Hards had some sneaking it, but very little. Or so I believe, I only played the older one for a short time.

Dragon, I call you a fan boy because you worship the PS3 and metal gear solid. I am not saying that MGS is a bad game, it is a good game, but it is not nearly as good as you think. You rave about MGS and it's innovation. I like all three system, and I do believe the PS3 is the strongest, but the wii is something new, which is why I prefer it. I like the MGS games, I like Halo, I like PC games, of all sorts. You get called a fan boy because of you always go on about PS3 and its greeatness.

Metal Gear was a late 1998 game in Japan and early 1999 in America. Tenchu was released in America and japan in 1998, Feb 26 for Japan and August 31 in America. Unless years count backwards, then MGS came second.


you still didnt answered all my questions from my previous post, therefore i think your denying facts,

btw MGS1 was earlier than tenchu, because i had MGs1 in 1997, you prob dont believe me because you probably didnt knew about the modded chip, you could play games before they were even released, and even if tenchu was released earlier, it didnt had any features MGS1 had,

IF IM WRONG PLEASE SHOW ME SCREENSHOTS OF THE FIRST TENCHU WHERE YOU COULD SEE THE SAME FEATURES THAT WAS IN MGS1, BECAUSE IF IT HAD THE SAME FEATURES AS MGS1 IT WOULD PROBABLY BE THE MAIN FEATURES AND IM SURE YOU CAN GET THE PICTURES EASILY IN GOOGLE,

STILL WAITING FOR THE DIE HARD SCREENSHOT WHERE I CAN SEE THE SAME FEATURES MGS1 HAD,

OR YOU COULD JUST ADMIT YOUR WERE WRONG AND TOLD ME A LIE BECAUSE YOU DONT WANNA ADMIT MGS1 WAS REVOLUTIONARY AND INNOVATIVE,

Author:  -ATHF-FryLock [ Fri Jun 15, 2007 9:27 pm ]
Post subject: 

Dragon, the only feature MGS had going for it was wall hugging, which allowed you to change the camera angle to view around corners. Other wise, every thing else was done. Tenchu had that, but instead of getting on the wall you pressed a button and it changed your view. Furthermore, the camera wasn't fixed, so you could change your direction to see.

MGS CAME OUT 1998 September in JAPAN. That means that there was no release to import. I know about Mod chips, and their illegal, so don't talk about them on the forums. So, in order to play MGS before Tenchu, you would need a time machine, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think we have those yet. Matter O' Fact, all signs point towards back wards travel through time is impossible. Forward, is possible, but we are far from that. Tenchu was out in Japan before MGS was out in Japan. There was a demo of MGS in 1997, but it was a demo. The game was still in development, and if you look at Tenchu's release date, then you would know it was in development at the same time. Tenchu was released first in both America and Japan. Face it, MGS isn't innovative, just another game that improves on other peoples work.

Edit: Ohh and if you have a time machine, then could you go back in time and stop Hitler from making Germany looking like an ass and ruining that fissionable mustache. Now I can't get grow one with out looking like a Neo-Nazi.

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